Morbid Curiosity. Re: SkyHook

[Spizzzarko 0]

I wasn't discouraging any one from knowing their equipment. I was encouraging everyone to not cut away low. See my post above this one.

[Ron 10]

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there was a guy who cutaway the skyhook cutaway rig at about 150 ft or so.

The reserve Slider was packed down.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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From what I have seen, it is always a good thing to "put the reserve where the main just was".

How about in a canopy wrap from a collision?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[egons 0]

I so understand what you are saying! Firstly the first jump course is very intensive and generic, but as you become more experienced jumping and more current you are in a better situation of identifying what malfunction you have and react according.

Now with all the extensive testing we have done at RWS I am very familiar with the gear - I guess you asking a very individual question as to what would they do? Hell, right now each one of us would think about the question and then weigh up our odds and then give a suggestion of what we would like to do if someone hit our main at 500ft and blew it up. Unfortunately none of us have the privelage of time when this occurs as all we have is an immmediate reaction (most of the time it works out, but there are the chances we chose wrong) - and truly I hope this scenario does not happen to anyone.

Personally I have a Skyhook in all my Microns. The one rig has a Velo103 and believe me at my wing loading when shit goes wrong it goes wrong very quickly. I have the Skyhook for a number of reasons, and one very motivating factor is that a large portion of my jumping is out of large turbine and more so multiple drops at the same time - the odds of a canopy collision are so much higher than when I started out jumping out of a C182 (max 4 jumpers in the sky). To answer what I would do - break away and get a good clean canopy above me! I trust the Skyhook completely... and I do believe shit happens also, but I am nto going to pump my reserve into a ball of shit above me!
I guess I can say this as I have extensively done test jumps with the equipment and my decisions have changed since jumping gear with a Skyhook!

I do not think Bill Booth, myself or anyone at RWS will ever ask you to revise your Emergency Procedures. Absolutely nothing must change about the way you go about your procedures, but as you are more aware of how your gear works then you are in a more educated position to make a decision as to what your options are.

Fact: I have personally done a break away with the test equipment at 500ft! Please do not think you can now go lower and now wait longer to make decisions!

The Skyhook for the good of us will become a standard industry safety addition - this is my belief and we will look back in 10 years and see - I hope I am right! I simply believe in the product not because I work for RWS, but I have confidence in the system. I also look forward to the Skyhook being availble on all rigs - it will make us all safer!

Cheers
Egon

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[Ron 10]

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Don't cutaway below 1000'

I have cut away below 800 feet without an RSL before.

It was I think the best option I had at the time....I lived, so I guess I did OK

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Spizzzarko 0]

Ron,

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm sure people do it every day and walk away. It's the thought proccess, that goes along with doing it. You are a very experienced jumper, and I have seen a few things myself, but if we continue to think "Oh, it doesn't matter I have a skyhook", that's when we all start to get into trouble. Look at the attitude out there about AAD's. Do you not get a feeling, that some people are lulled into a false since of security, because they have one?

[Freeflysmiley 2]

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Remember what your AFF JM's told you.. Don't cutaway below 1000'. Just fire the reserve. Go back to basics man, they will save your ass one day. Besides, other than a canopy collision why should you be cutting away that low?

This sort of response is most interesting in my opinion. Not a month ago there was a huge debate on here concerning gear, as related to someone not understanding how to use their cypres. I believe that everyone who owns a skyhook should know how it works and the benefits that it may have. There was never a mention of cutting away at minimum altitude for the fun of it. But if my canopy gets hit by a passing airplane wing at 400', then I'm already dead. If knowing that my skyhook can save my ass better than just pulling my reserve, then by god I want to know that. (Not that I have a skyhook or that it is the better response, but everyone should know their equipment and never be discouraged from learning about it)

Very interesting point you make. At 400ft on a normal reserve fire with a damaged main ( so probably slow speed deployment), you will most likely be on the ground before your reserve deploys on its own, if indeed it manages to come out of it s bag.

If you cut WITH a skyhook your odds actually improve over just deploying the reserve.

Any thoughts......

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According to TSO test standards, if you pull a reserve ripcord at 300 feet, you should have a fully-inflated reserve before impact.

That doesn't really help Rob. Does that still apply in a slowspeed mal under a damaged main Rob? I don't know but I thought in those cicumstances there can be insufficent drag to deploy the reserve, surely if you have a skyhook it would be better to cut away....

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Practise the 6 P's!
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[Ron 10]

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I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm sure people do it every day and walk away. It's the thought proccess, that goes along with doing it...but if we continue to think "Oh, it doesn't matter I have a skyhook", that's when we all start to get into trouble. Look at the attitude out there about AAD's. Do you not get a feeling, that some people are lulled into a false since of security, because they have one?

Oh, I agree with you 100%. I think using a saftey device as a replacement for training and procedures is a VERY bad idea. People are still going to do it however and claim they are safe and good jumpers since they bought them.

But my only comment was to the blanket statement of don't cutaway below 1,000 feet. As a general rule..Its not a bad one. However, I would rather the people spend time thinking about the situations they could be in rather than just say they will just dump the reserve below 1,000 feet.

In my case I knew where I was both with altitude and spot. I also made the choice to modify my E-procedures in that second to make sure I had a Reserve PC launch as soon as possible.

I KNEW if I landed my highly loaded spinning main I would have been dead. I also knew that while I was lower than I wanted (Do a search if yall are really interested)..But I also had a pretty good idea that if I had just dumped my reserve I would not have made it either.

The preferable course of action is to have well thought out plans for as many situations as you can think of....and practice them. Back when I started guys would sit around and talk about possible things that could happen...I have tried to do this in the last few years and the answers I get are "My CYPRES will fire", or "I have an RSL".

The next is to have basic rules and follow them (This whole situation of when can you cut away would never come up...Since you are supposed to know by 1800 feet and exicute by 1600 right?) But we all know that does not always happen.

The last, worse way of dealing with this is to just buy all the cool toys and trust they will save you.

The BEST course of action is to have plans for every possible situation and practice them...AND have the cool saftey toys just incase you screw up.

I hate RSL's. However, I am thinking of getting a Skyhook on my next rig since there is only ONE situation now where I can see a Skyhook being a problem....I am waiting to talk to Bill about it to finalize my opinion on that one issue.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AndyMan 7]

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Oh good! How could I survive 5 year not to have and not to see any canopy collision or mid-air canopy damage?

You've been lucky. In the last two years I've known 2 people die in canopy colisions. One of them was Roger Nelson, so clearly having skill is not enough. The other was "Porno", who was working on a CRW world record. He had plenty of skill, too.

We'll never know if cutting away low was an option for either of those two people, but it is a potential tool to use when you need it. It might make things a whole lot worse, but it also might save your ass.

Shit does happen.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Praetorian 1]

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there was a guy who cutaway the skyhook cutaway rig at about 150 ft or so.

The reserve Slider was packed down.

[egons 0]

Yes that clown who got complacent was ME

This actually happened while we were up at Rantoul last year. We have 3 rigs for doing this demonstration and I was doing a few a day and we were jumping on low passes like when we were socked in and the only aircraft flying was Ray's PAC and John's Helicopter. JC (RWS Production Manager) and I decided to both kit up with Skyhook Equipped Test Rigs and off we were in the heli for a 3grand hop and pop! Our intention was to both start spinning and break away together and bang what a nice show! Not quite - me being the clown I am at times do also make stupid mistakes and this is why we have AAD's, etc - for when we totally f@#k up!!! Well, upon gear inspection I did not check my RSL shackle and ensure it was connected - doo! Ok! Off we go and at 1000ft we decided to break away and shit - nothing has come off my back. I look back - nothing
Looked at my silver and saw the swoop pond coming at me at a pace... pulled silver and in the saddle a little relieved and pissed at myself
The thing that people were clearly able to see is 2 skydivers with the same simulated malfunction - one with Skyhook and one without it hooked up... Very clearly you can see now how effective the Skyhook is! Needless to say my buddy's watching were a little worried as it was low and they could clearly see what is going on, but the thing is at these altitudes you do not have time and this what the Skyhook does - it shortens the time between a fully inflated main to a fully inflated reserve!

Complacent - yes I was and I did learn from it and I have made this one very serious part of my gear check!

For those watching - this was a damn fine show of how well a Skyhook works and a rig without one works!

The guys that did the 100ft breakaways - yes I was there and these boys yes are experienced base jumpers, but they were also tickling the Lions balls..

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[Reginald 0]

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I`d rather follow best practices. I wont cut-away under hard deck.

So you think this statement accurately reflects best practices? The last time I read the US SIM it talked about not cutting away below 1,000 feet not a hard deck. And at only 185 jumps I presume you use a hard deck of 1,800 to 2,000. I also really question your assertion that altimeters are not accurate. A properly maintained altimeter is highly accurate and is more accurate the lower it gets.
Moreover, the discussion is about what best practices should be given various gear innovations not what they are currently.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[crotalus01 0]

I am way new to the sport, but already I have witnessed a situation where a jumper HAD to chop below 1K...a gust of wind collapsed the canopy at about 1.2K and it spun up, lines entangled around his leg, he chopped but the wad of crap went nowhere, reserve fired into the whole mess and only partially inflated. fortunately he lived with relatively minor injuries. SO, what about a situation like that (without the entanglement issues)? collapsed canopy at 1K or below resulting in a hard spin...not dependance on the Skyhook, but a real emergency when chopping below the hard deck may be the best way of saving your ass? sounds like the Skyhook is a good deal when faced with a situation like that...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[diablopilot 2]

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Does that still apply in a slowspeed mal under a damaged main Rob?

Yes.

300' and/or 3 seconds I believe.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Avion 0]

People seem amazing unaware of incidents. Do they actually have to see one personally in order to learn from them. This one is why I had a skyhook installed on the used Vector 3 I bought:

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Here is a description of what I saw. I was scanning around for canopies
as I was heading back to the landing area. I had just crossed the
runway on the North side and was heading towards the landing area. My
canopy was a little West of where Todd impacted.

I was turning my head to the left as I noticed a body glance off Todd's
canopy, and this was between 900 and 1000 ft. I didn't see how the
canopies ended up in the same place, but I noticed an unusual body swing
under the canopy above Todd's, at the same time I noticed Todd's canopy
deform in shape (it got smaller) and it spun him ~180 degrees (after the
180 spin he was facing to the east north east, so it turned him from a
West heading to an East heading). I could see his face from between the
lines as he looked up at his canopy and the other person involved.
I saw the other canopy turn in a left carve about 30 yards in front and
below me which put that person to my right heading towards the landing
area, and that person looked back at Todd. At this moment my focus
shifted right away to Todd as he looked up and was attempting to fly the
canopy. For a second the canopy regained its shape, and my immediate
thought was "cool he can land it" and I decided to follow him and land
with him at that point. Todd took his eyes off the canopy and looked
around to figure out where he was at (that what it looked like he was
doing). As he turned his head the canopy bow-tied (looked like it
collapsed), and the slider went up the lines more than half way. Now
the canopy was very much deflated, and started spinning clockwise
(looking at it from the top) flinging Todd's body around. About one
turn into the spin, Todd went for the reserve handle with both hands and
deployed his reserve. I saw the reserve pilot chute come off and the
yellow reserve material was clearly out of the free bag as he impacted
on his right side. I counted three spins from the time the canopy
collapsed, and it was a fast enough spin such that Todd impacted
horizontally on his right side, with his back towards earth (his right
shoulder was lower than his left shoulder). So the left side of his
back took most of the impact. He didn't move after he hit.

[diablopilot 2]

People 9or at least myself) DO remeber incidents. Some of us correctly believe that all the fancy little gadgets in the world won't always save your ass.

The SkyHook is a neat idea. It should NOT change the way you skydive, ever.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.