Spotting Training - do you see it happening?

[chuckakers 426]

Jus' curious.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billeisele 130]

some but not as much as in the past

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[mx19 0]

It happens quite often in the uk as part of the JM1 sticker for your B licence.

[JohnRich 4]

What fo we need to spot? We got us a GPS and a green light!

Seriously, Chuck and I had this conversation just a few weekends ago. We had a new pilot who wasn't familiar with the drop zone and he was putting jumpers out all over the countryside. They would adjust the green light turn-on after each load, and it would still be wrong.

I finally spoke up with a bright idea. A radical idea. An idea that is so crazy, that no one gave it any serious consideration. My idea? Turn the green light on early on jump run, and let a spotter in the door determine the exit point of the first group. We could even use hand signals to adjust the jump run left or right.

CRAZY!

We've become so enamored with electronic gizmos and lights, that many people don't even bother to look out the door any more... Pilots are often just flying to the numbers on the GPS - many of them don't even bother to look down out the window to see if they're over a cloud. They don't take into consideration the number of groups. There are many factors that SHOULD be accounted for by the SKYDIVER in the door.

And of course, all the jumpers who AREN'T by the door immediately start yelling "GO! GO! GO!" when they see the green light, not considering for one moment that the person in the door might actually have a darned good reason for delaying the exit.

We've become a bunch of mindless robots, enslaved by a flickering green light.

[MorfiusX 0]

I take the opportunity to spot when given a chance. Even if a JM is calling the spot, I like to look out and see where we are at, think about where I would tell the pilot to cut, and compare that to where the JM would tell them to cut.

I spotted for my 3500 hop and pop, pilot waited about 10 seconds after I told him to cut before doing so (I guess is GPS is more accurate than me... :) )

But yeah, I like to know that if I am ever in a new place or situation and need to spot, that I have the right skills to do so.

The biggest reason I replied is to say, "Yes, at my DZ, students are trained to spot".

[doughboyshred 0]

That's what fucked me up on my last jump. I wasn't prepared to stick my head out of the plane and look down. It messed up my head. So, I can say for certain that at Snohomish they are teaching us to spot.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Some of us jump from a 182. Without GPS.
Although I jumped at a neighboring DZ on Sunday and they have put a GPS in their 182. The pilot let us know when we were straight above the DZ and opened the door. My jump partner did the spotting, but all he had to do was call the cut.

I've always liked hanging my head out the door and taking a good look for any traffic (either in the air or moving around on the airport) whether the jumprun is good or not (and it's always nice to be sure).

Our pilots are pretty good at putting us where we need to be, but they listen to any "fine tuning" we ask for on jump run.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Arvoitus 1]

Where I'm from our students are required to learn how to spot properly.

I remember the first time I jumped at a turbine DZ with green/red lights and GPS spotting. It felt odd to just go after the green light.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[DocPop 1]

Pull high enough and have enough canopy skills and spotting becomes a dead art.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[shropshire 0]

Things that you just don't hear any more .......

... "5 Left .......... CUUUUUUT"

and we're the poorer for it too.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Cheach 0]

We start learning to spot at our dz as students. Somewhere around jump 10ish I believe. From then on out- you spot. I was pretty solid at "5 right....5 right...okay. 10 left." But no- really. My instructors always pushed that I should never get out of a plane without looking down for myself first- and if I do, and it was a bad spot- nobody to blame but myself.

I woke up next to a blowup doll Ash....so what do you think?

[727_Jumper 0]

I don't see too much emphasis on spotting anymore. It used to be an art and you were a marked man if you spotted the load long or short. Now I see(hear) things like "look straight down, if you see hangars, go". I don't see winds aloft reports anymore either, only stuff like "the winds are pretty stiff at altitude, give an 8 second delay between groups".

[pchapman 279]

Some "turbine DZ's" still keep a 182 or similar around, for slow days at the end of the season, hop and pops, etc.

Does anyone shift students over to the small plane for spotting training?

(Or are a couple lower jumps seen as being too limited for the student -- if paying all they do for gear & instructors, they can get more done going from full altitude.)

[Ron 10]

It is talked about, but very few students actually have to do it.

Instead, the otter flies over, the light turns on, the dude gets out and it is considered a spot.

Shame really... It is a life saving skill.

I have taken groups of jumpers to cessna DZ's to teach them, but fewer and fewer want to learn.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skyflower_bloom 0]

I know I SHOULD know how to spot comfortably by A license. I also get freakishly nervous about spotting (yes the goal is to leave the plane, but sticking my head and torso out when I don't intent to leave freaks me out).

I don't think at my 18 jumps I could do it so far if the load was depending on it or the technology failed. Because first off I don't know WHAT I am looking for and am not far enough into jump numbers to really get a feel for what things do and/or should look like (plus I switched dzs at 5 jumps so I don't have 18 jumps in a row at one place, and I had a couple minor injuries and travel plans this summer which gave me a few bigger gaps between student jumps).

Also, I jump with different instructors and coaches as it is a mid-size drop-zone, some don't have you do anything re: the spot, but one recently really made me get my head out there and tell him when we were over the dz, I just don't think one jump/spot is enough to learn the skill.

That said, as a student I realize I need to be proactive and engage in actually looking before I get out (I am still accustomed to letting the coach spot and check in via eye contact with coach, and going by that and the green light, which I realize I need to not do, especially since my jump this weekend, coach climbed out first but I was the first to exit the plane-- and my instinct was to look UP at him and the light, not DOWN at what I was about to dive into. Hmmm that actually is not at all good, but I guess part of me feels like I wouldn't have any idea whether what I was seeing was a "good" or "bad" spot anyway-- hence the need to continue to learn I guess!

I did feel some pressure from the other skydivers yelling to go this past jump, which doesn't happen often in my own experience but I guess now that I have enough jumps and have been around most of the season, people are taking the "kid gloves" off and such (where I don't think anyone at my dz would tell an AFF level student to "go go go" and some people have thought I had my A already..)

I also think that because that specific day was very hit or miss due to weather and cloud base, people wanted to ensure they got their jump in on that load?

But still, I can say as a student I realize I need to continue to practice/learn spotting, I appreciate the coaches and instructors who push you out of your comfort zone and make you do it even though it makes me nervous, and I can say with certainty that as a student with 18 jumps, I don't like people yelling while I am in the door (but I don't think I would like that with 1800 jumps either-- just that as a student, you may need a few seconds in the door to get ready, and I feel kind of intimidated to take the time to spot or try to learn it when I am early out and a whole load is waiting to go.. maybe I should ask to go on a load where I can help spot and plan around that, with other students, or ask to go up in the smaller plane?)

I know in theory I am supposed to spot for my 3500 foot hop n pop, and I would not feel comfortable doing that today.. so yeah I would say we have become very reliant on the little green light and the GPS, but I do see some staff really making students stick their heads out and trying to teach that skill. I also think students need to be proactive, but when they are, the other jumpers should be understanding that they might get to the door 10 or 15 seconds later, and that they too were once a student learning these things..

blues,
R

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

[yeyo 1]

Over here you have to know how to spot.
Starting on AFF level 8 (hop and pop), you are required to spot for yourself.

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[jimmytavino 16]

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Pull high enough and have enough canopy skills and spotting becomes a dead art.

you ARE joking???? right???


pull high enough,,,
( and when unexpected by others)
and someone could freefall through your canopy...
no joke

jt
A 3914
D 12122

[DeNReN 0]

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Pull high enough and have enough canopy skills and spotting becomes a dead art.

Thats one of the stupidest things I have read on dizzy in a while.



We teach spotting with all students who continue training past a few jumps, to get a solo licence in Canada the student must have 3 unassisted spots landing within 50 metres of the target.

Spotting is not just looking out the aircraft at the ground and getting out over the correct location it is also determining where the spot is.

[Ron 10]

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Pull high enough and have enough canopy skills and spotting becomes a dead art.

It is a dead art.... But I hope you are joking.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skyflower_bloom 0]

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Spotting is not just looking out the aircraft at the ground and getting out over the correct location it is also determining where the spot is.

And how do you do that? I sort of believed it would just become intuitive over time of being told where it was, but it doesn't seem any more intuitive than it used to.. is there some sort of formula for knowing this?? Some of us have much less positional/geographic instincts than others, so to some that might come naturally but to me that is something I will need to be taught and/or force myself to learn very intentionally and specifically. I am not disagreeing, I would like to know, but don't have any idea how one would go about teaching OR learning that...?

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

[billvon 3,085]

>is there some sort of formula for knowing this?

Not really. Take it upwind a little if the wind is moderate. Take it upwind a lot if the wind is strong. Turn jump run into any crosswind (if any) and add some offset.

Then just try it, and if you're too far east, go further west next time.

[727_Jumper 0]

you need to compensate for the speed of the aircraft, course over ground and winds aloft (at altitude) and for the canopy ride.

maybe you've heard of Kentucky Windage? you need to shoot for an exit point, which, when all the factors combined, will have you end up at the DZ for landing.

[stratostar 5]

I teach the "swiss alpine" method to all the new jumpers now dayz.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DeNReN 0]

Hi skyflower, I will not attempt to teach you how to spot over the internet, you need to talk to a local instructor who is familiar with spotting.

Using information avaible to you in the SIM's is also a great place to start http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section5/tabid/168/Default.aspx#975

Some methods to research could be WDI's (wind drift indicators) Meteorological reports (wind velocities at different altitudes), aircraft drift (rate one turns or pattern flying), Cloud drift. or everyones favorite....watch the 1st load and tweak it from there

[DeNReN 0]

Quote

Quote

Pull high enough and have enough canopy skills and spotting becomes a dead art.

It is a dead art.... But I hope you are joking.

It is far from a dead art....come back to a C-182 DZ that does IAD's or SL.