popsjumper 2 #26 October 13, 2010 If I were a small business owner I would fold it up in a heartbeat rather than succumb to a union's extortion. Now ALL of you are out of work...until you can find some sucker that enjoys taking it up the butt.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 892 #27 October 13, 2010 Oh come on man! Look what it's done for the auto industry and for Harley too for that matter... I wanna make $75 an hour for jumping, don't you??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #28 October 13, 2010 I wanna see all the lazy asses and incompetents being protected by the union on weekends, just like I get to see 5 days a week at my regular job.I'm a part timer. The pay is okay, the working conditions are fine. I don't feel the need for a union personally. Well, maybe when the 280 # tandem passenger shows up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #29 October 13, 2010 Quoteskydive professionals union??? is there such thing?? I mean for all people in the industry. Tandem masters, outside Camera people, packers. Honestly, i cant believe there isn't yet that i can find. I know there is some problems with unions, but frankly speaking we aren't paid what we should be paid as a professional. Does anyone know anything about this matter. Peace CallmeJ To start with, if we get paidd what we are worth, we will quickly be unemployeed, the price of a first jump woudl be out of reach.. Which BTW, is usually the result of any union...the price of the product skyrockets! No way in hell would I join another Union, I was in teh steel workers union, and the machinist union, all they ever did was takee a bite of my paycheck.. FUCK Unions.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #30 October 13, 2010 BTW, Packers at Perris can make up to 60 dollars an hour on weekends...I'd call that pretty good money! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #31 October 13, 2010 I know T-I's and Videoagrapher's making 105 to 140 an hour. Our "industry" (in the US) is running on the razors edge. Any price increase in skydiving could kill it off real fast, starting with the smaller operations and then the larger as staff migrate but customers don't. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #32 October 13, 2010 If Unions moved in, we would see a huge rise in private clubs, followed by the less than perfect aircrafft... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #33 October 13, 2010 Unions, like all else, are a good idea until they become too strong. I paid my union over $600.00 this year to get a 2% salary increase over 3 years. I'm not complaining. My union is the reason I make good money with medical benifits, Paid Time Off, etc. I'm just thinking for skydivers, it may or may not be a good idea. What I'm waiting for it the states to step in a require workers comp insurance. Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rick 67 #34 October 13, 2010 QuoteQuote FUCK Unions.. +1 In my experience Union=Organized CrimeYou can't be drunk all day if you don't start early! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ridestrong 1 #35 October 13, 2010 What a joke! Go ahead and get unionized.... meanwhile I'll do your 'job' for free.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyrider 0 #36 October 13, 2010 Quote Unions, like all else, are a good idea until they become too strong. I paid my union over $600.00 this year to get a 2% salary increase over 3 years. I'm not complaining. My union is the reason I make good money with medical benifits, Paid Time Off, etc. I'm just thinking for skydivers, it may or may not be a good idea. What I'm waiting for it the states to step in a require workers comp insurance. They do here, Perris takes it out of the paycheck, even if you have your own insurance.. BTW, they refused to pay, and contested my claim when I bleww a disc in freefall....My insurance took care of my medical bills.....and my own skills took care of making a living..... Required insurance doesn;t mean Shit for actual benifits... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #37 October 13, 2010 >To start with, if we get paidd what we are worth, we will quickly be >unemployeed, the price of a first jump woudl be out of reach.. I'd say that what we are "worth" is what people are willing to work for. Lots of people want to skydive for a living, so they're willing to work for very little. Which is why pay scales in skydiving are pretty low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyrider 0 #38 October 13, 2010 Quote>To start with, if we get paidd what we are worth, we will quickly be >unemployeed, the price of a first jump woudl be out of reach.. I'd say that what we are "worth" is what people are willing to work for. Lots of people want to skydive for a living, so they're willing to work for very little. Which is why pay scales in skydiving are pretty low. Have you priced a proffesional cameraman lately? They laugh when they hear what Skydive photographers get paid.... But to charge those prices, would mean not getting hired anymore... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #39 October 13, 2010 QuoteIf you do 1000+jumps a year somewhere then a couple of bucks goes a long way to making more money. If you do 500-600 jumps a year you need a much bigger increase in income to make it worthwhile. Also job security goes right out the window as Pty Ltd. At least as a contractor there are rights as with being an employee. Work Cover is considerably more in Qld than Nsw which means up here you need yet again an even bigger increase in remuneration for it to be equitable. And lastly, if someone comes to me to negotiate then I will sit down and talk. If someone comes and holds a big stick over me and just tells me my rights are going out the window and I have to do this or that then I stand my ground Thats what happens when you work for a company that pretends to be the biggest in the country, tells you they are the biggest in the county, hires staff like they are the biggest in the country and buys plant like they are the biggest in the country. When in reality they are not doing that many numbers compared to their staff numbers, are forced to pay agents more than what the instructors get payed and are competing with a very successful business. I worked for them too koppel, know how they think and they will lie to your face and hold you to ransom. I had the audacity to tell them the drinking and drug culture was costng them 100's of 1000's of$$$ per year. I would go home and see the crew drinking beer at the pub, when there was blue skies, midday and 30 + people to do. A cloud woul come over, rain for half hour..... Beer oclock!!!, it is the tropics for fucks sake it does that. That culture is what has killed that company and Leigh and I were told we were no longer needed in the company afte we tried to help them. This was 7 weeks before our wedding and we had already given them 2 months notice. NO MORALS. Fortunately I picked up work at the Gong, made much more money and had much more fun. and returned there the following season. Once again your problem is not the PTY LTD thing, it is the company you work for."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #40 October 13, 2010 Quote Oh yeah, nor other thing....... Your a DZ operator now hey? Guess that changes the way you think Tongue nah, you know I have felt this way since before, we talked about it at the swoop nationals. BTW I should be constructing a pond over the next 12 months (depending on how things go). I hope to have a comp or 2 here in the coming years. I look forward to having a yarn in person again, it is good to have people around that can have a good yarn."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skipbelt 0 #41 October 13, 2010 would pilots be included in this theoretical union ? if we keep wages where they are and unionize , it will be a net pay cut due to union dues. if you raise wages to break even , where will that money come from ? my dzo's profit margin is razor thin. no room for a pay raise there. luckily he like many dzo's has a 2nd business that subsidises the dz during lean times. my main wonder is tm's at my dz get paid 16x what pilots get paid. and from what i can see their qualifications and experience required are roughly the same ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #42 October 13, 2010 Quotewould pilots be included in this theoretical union ? if we keep wages where they are and unionize , it will be a net pay cut due to union dues. if you raise wages to break even , where will that money come from ? my dzo's profit margin is razor thin. no room for a pay raise there. luckily he like many dzo's has a 2nd business that subsidises the dz during lean times. my main wonder is tm's at my dz get paid 16x what pilots get paid. and from what i can see their qualifications and experience required are roughly the same ! The amount pilots are paid is atrocious in our industry, my DZ is owned (along with me) by pilots and we have discussed this in great length. As much as there are pilots out ther that are willing to fly fo free we have decided to pay the pilots as much as the instrcutors per load. they are willing to fly fo free to get the job when they are not flying but soon feel hard done by when they are... They pay fortune for their rating, they handle very expensive equipment and have the lives of your staff and reputaton of your company in their hands. I have seen too often disgruntled pilots thrashing the equipment and it is, in my honest opinion, better for the company in the long run to pay the pilots accordingly. This is not the industry standard and our opinion on that is; Just because pilots are not usually paid well, does not mean that they should not be. When we purchase our turbine I want to make sure our pilot respects us and the equipment, if they break something it can cost huge amounts of money to fix. The pennies you saved on paying them peanuts just costs you more in the end. Pay peanuts, get monkeys! As far as unions go I have no real experience with them, on one hand they give the little guy a voice but on the other hand they can get in the way of common sense. A bit like litigation."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skipbelt 0 #43 October 13, 2010 i really truly enjoyed your analysis here. a breath of fresh air. generally speaking your jumpers with a bit of exposure to any given pilot will have a pretty accurate idea of how good they are ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites koppel 5 #44 October 14, 2010 You put on the comp I'm there! Bottom line is there are issues in the industry. They need to be dealt with. Divide and conquer has been the way before. The union is giving people a chance to negotiate. There are benefits for the company in this as well. For those that think it's ok to pay the agent more than the instructor your are idiots. Rhys pays pilots because he sees the value in how pilots work when paid properly. You get a better class of instructor when you pay properly as well. You get to retain them for longer so they are more experienced and better educated and hopefully by that logic safer. Pay peanuts get monkeys hey Rhys?I like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #45 October 14, 2010 QuoteYou put on the comp I'm there! It'l take time, but it will happen! QuoteBottom line is there are issues in the industry. They need to be dealt with. Divide and conquer has been the way before. The union is giving people a chance to negotiate. There are benefits for the company in this as well. As I said I am not too clued up on unions, but they can go either way it seems, it depends on the parties at hand. QuoteFor those that think it's ok to pay the agent more than the instructor your are idiots. Well not exactly, I definately do not agree with that practice, but I am working on marketing and SEO at the moment and the major online booking agents are taking 20% commission. I am refusing to pay that at present due to our slim margins etc etc. but the major successful companies are on those sites as well as a few others. Those sites can spend hundreds of thousands on SEO and marketing, and can sens some good numbers your way, or not. The situation you have up there in Queensland is not due to this, it is due to operators coming into town and 'offering' the higher commission to gain the market share. Tandem Cairns for example, this is text book; shooting yourself in the foot. This is part of the reason the company you work for has a very tight budget and this situation is directly connected to how they are treating you. There are different scenarios for a higher commission to the agents, On one hand the agent can offer the best available marketing and charge you more commission and you agree to do so... and on the other hand there are operators that offer a higher commission to gain a higher market share. Unfortunatly in Australia/Cairns it is the latter version (that you mention) that is affecting you. QuoteRhys pays pilots because he sees the value in how pilots work when paid properly. You get a better class of instructor when you pay properly as well. You get to retain them for longer so they are more experienced and better educated and hopefully by that logic safer. True, but not necessarily. Your chances are much higher, you still have to monitor everybody because lazy people have a daily budget and once they earn that amount, their enthusiasm drops and they simply want to go home. However the chances of disgruntled staff is less, and if you send someone down the road (for being and idiot/lazy etc.) you are more likely to have a line of people wanting to work for you, having good equipment helps there too. QuotePay peanuts get monkeys hey Rhys? Damned straight!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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ridestrong 1 #35 October 13, 2010 What a joke! Go ahead and get unionized.... meanwhile I'll do your 'job' for free.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #36 October 13, 2010 Quote Unions, like all else, are a good idea until they become too strong. I paid my union over $600.00 this year to get a 2% salary increase over 3 years. I'm not complaining. My union is the reason I make good money with medical benifits, Paid Time Off, etc. I'm just thinking for skydivers, it may or may not be a good idea. What I'm waiting for it the states to step in a require workers comp insurance. They do here, Perris takes it out of the paycheck, even if you have your own insurance.. BTW, they refused to pay, and contested my claim when I bleww a disc in freefall....My insurance took care of my medical bills.....and my own skills took care of making a living..... Required insurance doesn;t mean Shit for actual benifits... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #37 October 13, 2010 >To start with, if we get paidd what we are worth, we will quickly be >unemployeed, the price of a first jump woudl be out of reach.. I'd say that what we are "worth" is what people are willing to work for. Lots of people want to skydive for a living, so they're willing to work for very little. Which is why pay scales in skydiving are pretty low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #38 October 13, 2010 Quote>To start with, if we get paidd what we are worth, we will quickly be >unemployeed, the price of a first jump woudl be out of reach.. I'd say that what we are "worth" is what people are willing to work for. Lots of people want to skydive for a living, so they're willing to work for very little. Which is why pay scales in skydiving are pretty low. Have you priced a proffesional cameraman lately? They laugh when they hear what Skydive photographers get paid.... But to charge those prices, would mean not getting hired anymore... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #39 October 13, 2010 QuoteIf you do 1000+jumps a year somewhere then a couple of bucks goes a long way to making more money. If you do 500-600 jumps a year you need a much bigger increase in income to make it worthwhile. Also job security goes right out the window as Pty Ltd. At least as a contractor there are rights as with being an employee. Work Cover is considerably more in Qld than Nsw which means up here you need yet again an even bigger increase in remuneration for it to be equitable. And lastly, if someone comes to me to negotiate then I will sit down and talk. If someone comes and holds a big stick over me and just tells me my rights are going out the window and I have to do this or that then I stand my ground Thats what happens when you work for a company that pretends to be the biggest in the country, tells you they are the biggest in the county, hires staff like they are the biggest in the country and buys plant like they are the biggest in the country. When in reality they are not doing that many numbers compared to their staff numbers, are forced to pay agents more than what the instructors get payed and are competing with a very successful business. I worked for them too koppel, know how they think and they will lie to your face and hold you to ransom. I had the audacity to tell them the drinking and drug culture was costng them 100's of 1000's of$$$ per year. I would go home and see the crew drinking beer at the pub, when there was blue skies, midday and 30 + people to do. A cloud woul come over, rain for half hour..... Beer oclock!!!, it is the tropics for fucks sake it does that. That culture is what has killed that company and Leigh and I were told we were no longer needed in the company afte we tried to help them. This was 7 weeks before our wedding and we had already given them 2 months notice. NO MORALS. Fortunately I picked up work at the Gong, made much more money and had much more fun. and returned there the following season. Once again your problem is not the PTY LTD thing, it is the company you work for."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #40 October 13, 2010 Quote Oh yeah, nor other thing....... Your a DZ operator now hey? Guess that changes the way you think Tongue nah, you know I have felt this way since before, we talked about it at the swoop nationals. BTW I should be constructing a pond over the next 12 months (depending on how things go). I hope to have a comp or 2 here in the coming years. I look forward to having a yarn in person again, it is good to have people around that can have a good yarn."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #41 October 13, 2010 would pilots be included in this theoretical union ? if we keep wages where they are and unionize , it will be a net pay cut due to union dues. if you raise wages to break even , where will that money come from ? my dzo's profit margin is razor thin. no room for a pay raise there. luckily he like many dzo's has a 2nd business that subsidises the dz during lean times. my main wonder is tm's at my dz get paid 16x what pilots get paid. and from what i can see their qualifications and experience required are roughly the same ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #42 October 13, 2010 Quotewould pilots be included in this theoretical union ? if we keep wages where they are and unionize , it will be a net pay cut due to union dues. if you raise wages to break even , where will that money come from ? my dzo's profit margin is razor thin. no room for a pay raise there. luckily he like many dzo's has a 2nd business that subsidises the dz during lean times. my main wonder is tm's at my dz get paid 16x what pilots get paid. and from what i can see their qualifications and experience required are roughly the same ! The amount pilots are paid is atrocious in our industry, my DZ is owned (along with me) by pilots and we have discussed this in great length. As much as there are pilots out ther that are willing to fly fo free we have decided to pay the pilots as much as the instrcutors per load. they are willing to fly fo free to get the job when they are not flying but soon feel hard done by when they are... They pay fortune for their rating, they handle very expensive equipment and have the lives of your staff and reputaton of your company in their hands. I have seen too often disgruntled pilots thrashing the equipment and it is, in my honest opinion, better for the company in the long run to pay the pilots accordingly. This is not the industry standard and our opinion on that is; Just because pilots are not usually paid well, does not mean that they should not be. When we purchase our turbine I want to make sure our pilot respects us and the equipment, if they break something it can cost huge amounts of money to fix. The pennies you saved on paying them peanuts just costs you more in the end. Pay peanuts, get monkeys! As far as unions go I have no real experience with them, on one hand they give the little guy a voice but on the other hand they can get in the way of common sense. A bit like litigation."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #43 October 13, 2010 i really truly enjoyed your analysis here. a breath of fresh air. generally speaking your jumpers with a bit of exposure to any given pilot will have a pretty accurate idea of how good they are ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koppel 5 #44 October 14, 2010 You put on the comp I'm there! Bottom line is there are issues in the industry. They need to be dealt with. Divide and conquer has been the way before. The union is giving people a chance to negotiate. There are benefits for the company in this as well. For those that think it's ok to pay the agent more than the instructor your are idiots. Rhys pays pilots because he sees the value in how pilots work when paid properly. You get a better class of instructor when you pay properly as well. You get to retain them for longer so they are more experienced and better educated and hopefully by that logic safer. Pay peanuts get monkeys hey Rhys?I like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #45 October 14, 2010 QuoteYou put on the comp I'm there! It'l take time, but it will happen! QuoteBottom line is there are issues in the industry. They need to be dealt with. Divide and conquer has been the way before. The union is giving people a chance to negotiate. There are benefits for the company in this as well. As I said I am not too clued up on unions, but they can go either way it seems, it depends on the parties at hand. QuoteFor those that think it's ok to pay the agent more than the instructor your are idiots. Well not exactly, I definately do not agree with that practice, but I am working on marketing and SEO at the moment and the major online booking agents are taking 20% commission. I am refusing to pay that at present due to our slim margins etc etc. but the major successful companies are on those sites as well as a few others. Those sites can spend hundreds of thousands on SEO and marketing, and can sens some good numbers your way, or not. The situation you have up there in Queensland is not due to this, it is due to operators coming into town and 'offering' the higher commission to gain the market share. Tandem Cairns for example, this is text book; shooting yourself in the foot. This is part of the reason the company you work for has a very tight budget and this situation is directly connected to how they are treating you. There are different scenarios for a higher commission to the agents, On one hand the agent can offer the best available marketing and charge you more commission and you agree to do so... and on the other hand there are operators that offer a higher commission to gain a higher market share. Unfortunatly in Australia/Cairns it is the latter version (that you mention) that is affecting you. QuoteRhys pays pilots because he sees the value in how pilots work when paid properly. You get a better class of instructor when you pay properly as well. You get to retain them for longer so they are more experienced and better educated and hopefully by that logic safer. True, but not necessarily. Your chances are much higher, you still have to monitor everybody because lazy people have a daily budget and once they earn that amount, their enthusiasm drops and they simply want to go home. However the chances of disgruntled staff is less, and if you send someone down the road (for being and idiot/lazy etc.) you are more likely to have a line of people wanting to work for you, having good equipment helps there too. QuotePay peanuts get monkeys hey Rhys? Damned straight!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
