why do you NOT jump a pullout?

[TrojanHorse 0]

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Isn't there a design of pullout that doesn't inflate immediately? Pud attached to the apex or base?

Yes they exist. I do not know however, if they are still in use. It is anyhow not very much recommended as with a pull-out system you actually pull out the pin of the closing loop (meaning your container is open). You can imagine what will happen if you hold the pilot chute and your bag decide to leave the container already…

BTW holding your pilot chute is NEVER recommended as the scenario above can also occur with a hand deploy (the drag on the bridle can in some cases be strong enough to unhook your pin too…)

William

[Tonto 1]

Parachute Systems, makers of the Vortex 2.

Their handle is sewn directly to the top of the pilot chute. If the PC is packed to deep, their is insuficient play to pull the pin. I know one jumper, who somewhat foolishly has had 5 terminal reserve deployments with this system in fewer than 300 jumps. The last time the riggers refused to pack his reserve due to damage to both the slider grommets and the line attachment to the connector links. The system where the handle and pin move through a small grommet is far superior.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Newbie 0]

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Also, most if not all of the manufacturers of wingsuits do not recommend pullouts. I don't find a basis for this recomendation, but it is there.

After doing some more research in this area, i found this:

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1. A BOC pilot chute, in a spandex pouch, is by far the most reliable deployment system for your main. Hard pulls and pilot chutes in tow are very, very rare, and floating handles are, by definition, impossible. Add to this the fact that you can't "throw" a pullout out of the burble (which extends well beyond your fingertips in a stable face to earth deployment position) because you never have ahold of the pilot chute itself. You end up "dropping" your pullout in the burble everytime, unless you contort your body (go slightly unstable) right at pilot chute release to "break-up" the burble. All successful pull-out jumpers have developed this talent, whether they realize it or not. But we all know that being "slightly unstable" at pull time is not a good idea with a small elliptical canopy.

2. We all also know that "out of sequence" deployments are not a good thing. (For instance: You don't want your canopy to get out of the bag before your lines unstow, do you?) Well, do you really want you main container open before your pilot chute is developing drag? A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition.
These first two reasons is why wing suit jumpers shy away from pullouts, but they apply equally to everybody.

I don't know if that's precisely why, but considering this was from a post Mr Booth put up in 2003, i figure he probably knows what he's on about

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[diablopilot 2]

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Hard pulls and pilot chutes in tow are very, very rare,

Check the incident reports.

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Add to this the fact that you can't "throw" a pullout out of the burble

A) Untrue.
B) Most jumpers these days are quite lazy with their throw, rarely bringing the P/C to arms length before letting go, not to mention, how much furthur do you think that P/C travels in that terminal airflow.

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All successful pull-out jumpers have developed this talent, whether they realize it or not. But we all know that being "slightly unstable" at pull time is not a good idea with a small elliptical canopy.

Kark. I've got several thousand jumps on small elipticals with pullouts that say otherwise.

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We all also know that "out of sequence" deployments are not a good thing. (For instance: You don't want your canopy to get out of the bag before your lines unstow, do you?) Well, do you really want you main container open before your pilot chute is developing drag? A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition.

Really? Just like your reserve?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[phoenixlpr 0]

? what? I`ve started with pull-outs. I would jump them any time.

I just hate to pack pull-out with spring loaded PCs...........

[katzurki 0]

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Parachute Systems, makers of the Vortex 2.

Their handle is sewn directly to the top of the pilot chute. If the PC is packed to deep, their is insuficient play to pull the pin. I know one jumper, who somewhat foolishly has had 5 terminal reserve deployments with this system in fewer than 300 jumps. The last time the riggers refused to pack his reserve due to damage to both the slider grommets and the line attachment to the connector links. The system where the handle and pin move through a small grommet is far superior.

t

Uh, I hope Racers are up to par :)

So which manufacturer has honed the pullout design to near perfection? I read Javelins still utilize velcro on their pullouts.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I was hesitant to order a pullout because many don't seem to like them (or maybe just don't like the idea of them, as many of those who knock them haven't tried them!)

Personally, I LOVE the pullout system! It is hard to explain, but it makes me feel more conscious of pulling. I think about it more, you have to hold it out for longer before letting it go, too, so I really think it helps as far as gaining stability again after pulling (at least for me it does!) I think I was a little lazy about it with the BOC. Not to mention, it just looks better than BOC, imo.

So, there you have it, one woman's opinion on the pull-out. There are downsides to both systems, though: With a boc, it would seem more possible to have a premature deployment. With a pullout, a floating pud could be a potential problem one day.

:)
-A

[Newbie 0]

I didn't know if that stuff was right or not - it's quoted from Bill Booth some years ago but seemed relevant to what you were wondering about so i just copied and pasted.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[mjosparky 4]

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Add to this the fact that you can't "throw" a pullout out of the burble

At 120 mph do you think you can "throw" any P/C throw out or pull out. Where you let go of the P/C is where it will start going up. Next time you are driving down the highway at 70 mph or so, take a napkin and try to throw it out of the window. It will go straight back as soon as it leaves your hand. No matter how hard you "throw" it.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[sundevil777 102]

A pullout with the handle at the base is less likely to be released at full arm extension.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Newbie 0]

I was directly quoting Bill Booth, so blame him!

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Squeak 17]

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Add to this the fact that you can't "throw" a pullout out of the burble

At 120 mph do you think you can "throw" any P/C throw out or pull out. Where you let go of the P/C is where it will start going up. Next time you are driving down the highway at 70 mph or so, take a napkin and try to throw it out of the window. It will go straight back as soon as it leaves your hand. No matter how hard you "throw" it.

Sparky

Hey Sparky take that same napkin and put a monkey fist in it and thow it out again, see if you get more distance this time

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[diablopilot 2]

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Hey Sparky take that same napkin and put a monkey fist in it and thow it out again, see if you get more distance this time

Super, so now the answer is to put an asymetrical WEIGHT in the P/C? Errr, yeah. Let's make the P/C heavier......




Throwouts work fine, but so do pullouts.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[murrays 0]

Going back to the original question, the only reason I jump a throwout now is because of wingsuit jumping. I jumped pullout from about jump #110 to 2200 over 22 years. One of these days, based on JP's experience jumping pull-out with wingsuits, I'll likely go back to my pullout.

I keep hearing about people having hard pulls on them these days...I think there must be some poorly designed ones because the Racer I did all of mine on that was never an issue.

Floating handle....if you can't find it in a second o two...and I've had about 5 floaters.... you will deploy your reserve into clean air.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[kelpdiver 2]

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At 120 mph do you think you can "throw" any P/C throw out or pull out. Where you let go of the P/C is where it will start going up. Next time you are driving down the highway at 70 mph or so, take a napkin and try to throw it out of the window. It will go straight back as soon as it leaves your hand. No matter how hard you "throw" it.

You certainly can throw it out (ie, horizonally) the window. That vector quickly gets dwarfed by the relative wind, but only drag will slow it down.

Since a PC is on a bridle, that never really comes into play. It's well under 1/10th of a second to go full length.

[riggermick 7]

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Hey Sparky take that same napkin and put a monkey fist in it and thow it out again, see if you get more distance this time

Super, so now the answer is to put an asymetrical WEIGHT in the P/C? Errr, yeah. Let's make the P/C heavier......





On one particular drop of the Reflex, the spring and hard cap assy of the reserve pilot chute (non catapult equiped) busted through the mesh/ fabric section of the primary reserve pilot chute @ 60 knts( it was a re-used pilot chute/ free bag assy from the HEAVY drops and had some visable damage + many other drops/ tests on it) deployed the reserve whithin the perscribed parameters without any fabric drag whatsoever. It was an interesting development during the course of TSO testing. How about that physics stuff anyway ??????? Who knew?
Mick.





Throwouts work fine, but so do pullouts.

[mjosparky 4]

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I was directly quoting Bill Booth, so blame him!

Not “blaming” anyone, just stating an opinion.

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Hey Sparky take that same napkin and put a monkey fist in it and thow it out again, see if you get more distance this time

Take a real P/C with the monkey fist, run the car up to 120 mph and see if you can throw it past the slipstream of wind.
Or you could put a 10 pound weight on the P/C, stand on the roof and give it a try. I tried it on a test vehicle and I could not throw a P/C at 90 mph.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dragon2 2]

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? what? I`ve started with pull-outs. I would jump them any time.

I just hate to pack pull-out with spring loaded PCs...........

You probably started with a RIPCORD.

Pull-out doesn't mean you pull out the ripcord It means you pull out the PIN yourself and then let the pilotchute do the rest.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[rhys 0]

i jumped one once and i was determined not to let go before the pin was pulled and held on a fraction too long, the p/c inflated and wrenched my shoulder. i now have a gammy shoulder. this has never happened to me with a boc but i guess it could.

i think throw out rigs look much tidier/cooler.

evrything has its pros and cons.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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I don't trust packers (packers are a must at a 4 way training camp) with a pull out.

Is that because of the possibility of a total if the pullout lanyard is not routed cleanly from the pin through the gromet to the pillow (ie. it gets wrapped)?

I recently switched to a pullout and occasionally use a packer if I'm trying to turn back to backs (okay, if I'm feeling lazy, too). She explained from the start that it was my responsibility to check the routing of the lanyard. I agree and it is the first thing I check when I pick up my rig from her.

Obviously this doesn't protect me from an internal error when stowing the bridle and PC that could cause a problem, as JP stated. I'm curious as to your lack of trust. Is there something else to this that concerns you?
-C.

[JohnMitchell 16]

I have about 3500 pull out jumps, and 2 reserve rides from totals. Once, I got sloppy and lazyand let the handle slip out of my grip, 2nd time a packer gave me a lanyard so twisted it totaled. My fault for not checking. I'd still take half a dozen times dumping a reserve past that tiny little pud than one time dumping my reserve past a pilot chute in tow. Terminal reserve openings ain't nothin' since they started putting the reserve on the back of the rig.

The wrenched arm thing has never happened to me. I pull to the side and throw, not trying to hang on.

[dropzonefool 0]

Ditto- twisted lanyard has caused many- o- totals.
It is SO easy to gear check, but it is also easy to twist the lanyard if you don't know what you are doing. You know.......every one who has BOC checks to see if there pilot chute is cocked (colored in window) I wonder how many pull out's get geared checked for twisted lanyards.

[mjosparky 4]

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At 120 mph do you think you can "throw" any P/C throw out or pull out. Where you let go of the P/C is where it will start going up. Next time you are driving down the highway at 70 mph or so, take a napkin and try to throw it out of the window. It will go straight back as soon as it leaves your hand. No matter how hard you "throw" it.

You certainly can throw it out (ie, horizonally) the window. That vector quickly gets dwarfed by the relative wind, but only drag will slow it down.

Since a PC is on a bridle, that never really comes into play. It's well under 1/10th of a second to go full length.

"You keep thinking Butch, thats what you are good at." Sundance to Butch.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airtwardo 7]

As I've said several times before on this forum, the market decided this issue many years ago. Now, 98% of all the rigs we make are BOC throw-out. From what I know, you are about 5 times more likely to have a main total if you jump a pull-out. This means you are 5 times more likely to have a terminal reserve opening if you use a pull-out. And because pull-outs are harder to deploy completely outside the burble, you are going to have a lot of pilot chute hesitations until you get used to the system. These are just some of the reasons I recommend against pull-outs. While some people have used them successfully for years, in the big picture they are a much more dangerous system than a throw-out.

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I've used both..and have one of each now.

The 5 times more likely to have a total is from
a floating pud I take it?
Or is there a failure I'm missing?
(DeCaf this morning, quite possible!)

The Pull Out rig I have is an older Vector, and in my humble opinion has a great design.
In my case anyway, even if the handle were to become dislodged it's still within easy reach.

Might just be my perception, but it 'seems' like
I have quicker deployment with a pull out.

All that being said, if Bill says throw-outs are better
I'm going to re-think what I was getting on my
new container...(pull-out)

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skydiverek 63]

Some pros of pull-out:

1. Pilotchute-in-tow mal is eliminated (in general)
2. Horseshoe is eliminated (in general)
These are the two mals that you may not be able to cutaway from before pulling the reserve (PC-in-tow: obvious. Horseshoe - watch the "Breakaway" horseshoe sequence both in commercial break and in the movie.)

Some cons of pull-out:
1. Straight pin can be pushed out (as opposed to curved pin which only rotates in place when the force is applied to itss tip - try it.).

I don't understand why the whole "floating pud" thing is used as a pull-out con... So what - you have a floating pud, you deploy a reserve. Thats it! "Floating pud" issue seems to be more a training or psychologically related danger, rather that design danger...