Newbie 0 #1 March 18, 2005 I'm thinking about changing to one - so far i can't work out really what the major disadvantage of using one is, other than a slightly different packing procedure, which isn't actually much of an issue. I'm thinking i would like to change just to not have the possibility of a PC in tow to potentially deal with at some point. Thanks for your help. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #2 March 18, 2005 I used one for over 1000 dives. Back in the old days (late 80's) many people died as a result of twisted leg straps and twisted belly bands with throw-out rigs. Pull-outs avoided this. As air speeds picked up, and freestyle and freeflying came along, the exposed velcro further increased the risk associated with jumping a throwout. Since the advent of the BOC, however, many of the disadvantages of the throwout were negated. Pullout's, however, still have issue with floating puffs, and some questionable designs result in impossible pull senarios as a result of small packing errors. PC in tow malfunctions.... Really, all your effort should go into avoiding one, not equiping yourself to deal with one. Besides. You'll need that throw-out when you start to fly a wingsuit - that most critical of all disipline when it comes to PC's in tow... tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #3 March 18, 2005 Can't think of why *I* wouldn't jump one. However: Quote I'm thinking i would like to change just to not have the possibility of a PC in tow to potentially deal with at some point. This malfunction is not totaly imposible. If the bridle is stowed poorly it could entangle with the P/C thus choking it closed leaving little drag to complete the deployment. Very rare scenario, and if altitude permits a deployment of the main may still be possible . Also, most if not all of the manufacturers of wingsuits do not recommend pullouts. I don't find a basis for this recomendation, but it is there.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytash 0 #4 March 18, 2005 as JP said - wingsuits. I did a lot of asking around experienced people at my DZ both who jump pull-out and those who jump BOC. I reached a similar conclusion to yours, but wanted to try a wingsuit when I got 500 jumps so went for the BOC. I would say it was only trying wingsuits that made me decide that way. tashDon't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #5 March 18, 2005 Ok i completely forgot about the wingsuit issue. That's still some ways off for me, but it's where i want to go, so i guess that was quite an easy decision to make. Thanks all. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #6 March 18, 2005 Back in the "olden" days our DZO wouldn't allow ANY hand deploy PC's on his private airport. Only Ripcords. He wanted one safety advantage over ripcords (not convenience or looks) I pointed out that the PC as a pull force of over 100lbs. (Pick you number and don't argue.) And that I couldn't pull a 100 lbs off the floor just using my arms like pulling a ripcord. He said "yep" and allowed them. That and the curved pin had just been put in use avoiding many of the tow situations. I still can't pull a 100lbs off the floor. So the PC has a better chance of pulling the pin than I do. One disadvantage is that you MAY have to have more strength to pull the pin than deploy the throwout. Not say there aren't no pulls on throwouts but these are packing issues not design. I have one customer who can't move to a BOC because his shoulder doesn't work well that way. Note, the arguments are more complicated than that. Both need attention and maintenance. But pull out designs STILL don't seem to be perfected. Note the variation in handle stowing designs. Throwouts seem to be better perfected. Pull outs have gotten better. But in the 80's and early 90's a majority of the reserve rides on our small DZ were due to floating pullout handles. I've had a throw out in tow. I almost died. It could have been prevented. Maintenance issue, not design. I still jump throwouts.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #7 March 18, 2005 Quote Ok i completely forgot about the wingsuit issue. That's still some ways off for me, but it's where i want to go, so i guess that was quite an easy decision to make.. Jumping a wingsuit is only 50 jumps away for you if you want to start. Sounds like you've already made the throwout pc decision. So throw $20 in the cookie jar for each of the next 50 jumps and you'll have the bucks for the suit. Presto! Broke but happy!Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #8 March 18, 2005 I'm in the UK - 500 minimum or 200 jumps in the last 18 months for wingsuit jumps here. I'm in no rush anyway, i'm still learning the basics. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #9 March 18, 2005 At present day's, mostly kill line PC system is used in order to eleminate the parasitic drag from PC and flight performances degradation. With pullout PC you will have it following you like small brake parachute:) if only you'll don't have it over your canopy before your nose - one more fun things that could happing with pullout PC :) (I had that once :) looks really funny:))...Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #10 March 18, 2005 Quote At present day's, mostly kill line PC system is used in order to eliminate the parasitic drag from PC and flight performances degradation. With pullout PC you will have it following you like small brake parachute:) if only you'll don't have it over your canopy before your nose - one more fun things that could happen with pullout PC :) (I had that once :) looks really funny:))... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Say what? Just yesterday, I installed a (Jump Shack) factory-stock pull-out pilot chute in a Racer, and it had a kill-line. Last week I installed a (Flying High) factory-stock, pull-out, kill-line pilot chute in a Sidewinder. This morning I have to repack a Voodoo with a (Rigging Innovations) factory-stock pull-out, kill-line pilot chute. Perhaps you were referring to spring-loaded pilotchutes? ... because no one has figured out how to install a kill-line strong enough to compress the pilot chute? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 March 18, 2005 ... because I have survived 4500 jumps with throw-outs. ... because I am too old and too grumpy to learn how to use a new handle. ... because I have repacked a lot of reserves for guys who could not find their floating pull-out handles. ... because pull-outs are not wingsuit-compatible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #12 March 18, 2005 I jumped one for over 1000 jumps. I do not jump one now, because every once in a while the PC would catch air before I fully let go. It would tweak my arm just a little. I didn't really feel it, but over time I developed a fluid sack on my shoulder from the friction. Not painfull. Just funny looking. Now that the throw out rigs are so clean and the bridle is very well protected, I went back to a throw out. Just personal choice. I think pull outs rock. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #13 March 18, 2005 Quote . because pull-outs are not wingsuit-compatible. Don't tell that to JP, he already slapped my peepee when I said that...______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #14 March 18, 2005 Quote ...Perhaps you were referring to spring-loaded pilotchutes?... Yep, actually about only this type of PC I was talckingWhy drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #15 March 18, 2005 Quote as JP said - wingsuits. To state again, I can't find a reason for that. They work fine and seem to have a much reduced tow possibility. That said, you can do what I did for the first 30 or so wingsuits. I made a small mod to my rig and bridle that allowed me to go back and forth between throw out and pull out. You'd have to add a BOC on the rig, or use the one on the suit if it had one, and either switch bag and pilotcute, or easier yet is have the bridle modified like a Mirage pullout so that the pullout handle, pun, gromet, and lanyard are larks headed onto the biridle at the P/C. You'll also need to install a freefly style handle on the apex of the P/C.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 March 18, 2005 Quote With pullout PC you will have it following you like small brake parachute:) Untrue. Pullouts most often use a kill-line pilotchute as well.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzle 0 #17 March 18, 2005 Isn't there a design of pullout that doesn't inflate immediately? Pud attached to the apex or base? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 March 18, 2005 Quote because I have repacked a lot of reserves for guys who could not find their floating pull-out handles. As many as you've repacked for the P/C in tow situation? Quote because pull-outs are not wingsuit-compatible. Untrue. Quote because I am too old and too grumpy to learn how to use a new handle. Old? Probably. Grumpy? You're a ray of sunshine.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #19 March 18, 2005 Quote he already slapped my peepee when I said that... I DID NOT TOUCH HIS PEE PEE!!! I SWEAR!!!! ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #20 March 18, 2005 As I've said several times before on this forum, the market decided this issue many years ago. Now, 98% of all the rigs we make are BOC throw-out. From what I know, you are about 5 times more likely to have a main total if you jump a pull-out. This means you are 5 times more likely to have a terminal reserve opening if you use a pull-out. And because pull-outs are harder to deploy completely outside the burble, you are going to have a lot of pilot chute hesitations until you get used to the system. These are just some of the reasons I recommend against pull-outs. While some people have used them successfully for years, in the big picture they are a much more dangerous system than a throw-out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #21 March 18, 2005 I don't trust packers (packers are a must at a 4 way training camp) with a pull out. throw outs work just fine. those are reason enough for me. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #22 March 18, 2005 I haven't been in this sport for very long, only abot 5 years. In those 5 years, strangely - I haven't seen many malfunctions. Of the handfull that I've witnessed, or saw the gear afterwards, NONE of them were pilot-chute-in tow malfunctions. While the pilot-chute-in tow is certainly a concern of mine, the anecdotal evidence I've seen clearly indicates it's not a common malfunction. On the other hand, I've seen 3 people chop from floating puds. To me, that's amazing because there simply are not that many pull-outs out there. To me, the risk analysis clearly indicates throw-out to be the superior deployment technique. I simply can't comprehend how someone would come to the alternate conclusion. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #23 March 18, 2005 Quote developed a fluid sack on my shoulder from the friction. Not painfull. Just funny looking. I saw JP had one of those too, but his has hair, eyes, and a nose and mouth! Keepin' it safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #24 March 18, 2005 Quote or use the one on the suit if it had one, For his first 30 or so jumps? I dont think so, since this BASE option is on the higher performance suits and NOT recommended for the first suit a beginner is going to fly. Keepin' it safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katzurki 0 #25 March 18, 2005 Quote and some questionable designs result in impossible pull senarios as a result of small packing errors. Which designs do you conceive as questionable, and which manufacturers have superior pullout designs? It's just that I did order my Racer 2k3 with a pullout for reasons I'll post when it arrives... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
