Causes of Malfunctions

[beezyshaw 0]

I just had some discussion via PM with AggieDave about main canopy malfunctions. It began in another forum and it was suggested I start a new thread about the issue. It began when mention was made about a packer being responsible for a reserve repack after a customer having a main malfunction.

I believe (based on a fair amount of experience in R&D in this area) that far too many main malfunctions are believed to somehow have a matter-of-fact, empirical, basis for cause, with cut-and-dry explanations as to why and how they occur. We've all heard it; someone gets back from either a bad opening or a malfunction and immediately gives the "reason" it happened. Frequently this explanation includes blaming their packer for the anomaly. Now don't misunderstand; poor packing can and does cause malfunctions. But what I'm saying here is in spite of excellent packing, excellent body position, etc. etc., even a canopy that opens very consistently (most) of the time can and will have a "mind of its own" and result in a less than perfect opening. I've made hundreds and hundreds of jumps with all kinds of slow-motion video angles, so my views have basis. The same canopy, packed exactly the same way by the same person, jumped on the same day by the same person, can and does exhibit drastic differences during the time between pilot chute launch and final inflation.

Some of the things I hear that are common, but erroneous statements...
"My packer packed me line twists." Now, do you really think your packer took your deployment bag and turned it around and around on the packing mat before putting it in your container? Just exactly "how" did your packer do this, then? Folks, canopies just sometimes get line twists, in spite of packing and body position. Bags can bump reserve container corners, rotate on the way off your back for unexplainable reasons, inflation can be less than symmetrical (again unexplainable) and other things just "happen". Good packing and body position LESSEN the occurance of line twists, but they DON'T eliminate them. It's called S%#T HAPPENS!

Other types of malfunctions that are too often "explained" with erroneous causes include line-over malfunctions, tension knot malfunctions, hard openings, excessively long snivels, and canopy damage on deployment like burns, tears, and broken stitching. Again, don't misunderstand me. Packing, body position, canopy age, type, and condition can and do cause these problems, but these factors don't ALWAYS explain the existence of things like this happening. If you could see how very different openings can look to the slow-motion video lens, you would see immediately how random and wild even a perfectly "normal" opening really is.

So I guess the moral of the story is, pack carefully, open with good body position, choose your gear so that you give yourself the best "chances" for good openings, maintain your equipment properly, but be very careful in "explaining" to others "why" you had a problematic or less than perfect opening; and please be especially careful not to jump to conclusions and blame someone else for your deployment issues.

That is all; over and out.

[jrcrackers 0]

agreed

I have been working on a new bag you might be interested in trying with your new rig.

[Designer 0]

Thank You!Well stated.rob

[Dominik 0]

Sure! And if someone rejects this he (at the same time) rejects that you can die skydiving even if you do everything right ...

[voodew1 0]

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I just had some discussion via PM with AggieDave about main canopy malfunctions

Beezy I think Dave is more qualified than you because he posts here so much he must know everything

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[beezyshaw 0]

So, just for the heck of it, how many jumpers out there are guilty of blaming their packer for issues discussed above? Does reading my original post cause you to re-think a bit? Maybe someone could tell me how to do one of those poll thingies.

[voodew1 0]

As a newer jumper(200 to 400 jumps) I was guilty of this - now I think that "shit happens" and even though I may give her hell, I will still lay my rig with my freshly repacked reserve at her feet to pack my main as PACKING SUCKS!!!

If I let someone else pack because I am to lazy to do it myself, I can't bitch.

I always, well almost always tip her regardless

Jason

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[NWFlyer 2]

Hey, I'm an American! That means it's my god-given right to 1) blame someone else, 2) sue their ass! and 3) Go on Jerry Springer and talk about it.

Seriously, though, by paying a packer (either indirectly, as I am now on student status, or directly, as I probably will from time to time once I'm licensed), I'm trusting they'll do a good job, and if I don't trust them, I should do it myself. My mal was packed by someone else and while we had some good-natured joking about it, it was my life that was saved, so I'm the one who bought the rigger his bottle, and if it weren't included in my student pricing, I would have paid for the repack. I took it as a learning opportunity - asking around for tips on what (if anything) in packing could contribute to that type of malfunction, but it also could have been a "shit happens" malfunction.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[AggieDave 6]

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Beezy I think Dave is more qualified than you because he posts here so much he must know everything

Yup, you know it, that's why I PMed him asking questions so I could learn then asked him to start a new thread since I figured other people might learn from him as well.
I know I learned some new things today from Beezy, so its a good day.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mjosparky 4]

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So, just for the heck of it, how many jumpers out there are guilty of blaming their packer for issues discussed above? Does reading my original post cause you to re-think a bit? Maybe someone could tell me how to do one of those poll thingies.

Since I am my packer, it wouldn't do much good to blame him. He'll just tell me "tough shit, next case".
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[CygnusX-1 43]

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That means it's my god-given right...

You forgot constitutional -- it's my god-given-constitutiional right... Honestly, look it up it's right after:

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in Order to form a more perfect Union, we must blame someone else, sue...etc.

[bodypilot1 0]

Well I have only had 2 reserve rides on my sport rig, and the packer was the cause for both.

The first one was a spinner as it came out of the D bag and inflated, causing major line twist and putting me flat out on my back.
It was packed by a packer that admittedly said she was distracted during the packing and forgot to stow a toggle, thus spinning me up.

The 2nd one was also caused by a packer, but it was me packing it.

Truely too many people blame the packers for the malfuctions they have, but the simple answer to that, in my mind is, "pack for your damn self or deal with it!"



Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[grega 0]

hmm i somewhat agree with you, but every single simple thing that happens in this world has a reason and explanation. well maybe we're not inteligent enough to understant every single thing that happens around us, but i just don't believe in word "shit happens". i think that for every opening there are reasons.

Since you were talking about packing...i think that not even one single pack is "exactly the same" it can't be it's so much fabric and lines, and puting it in the bag, can't be. well maybe there are two exactly the same packs in about milion packs.
and the body position is hardly "exaclty the same" every time. maybe your rig is 1/10 of an inch more to the right than it was previous jump. so there almost aren't any constants in packing or life itself.
Not to mention air that is the most unpredictable thing. You could open in a slight turbulent air. how could you tell, you can't see the turbulence, but the canopy can definitely feel it even during the opening.

So i think there is always a reason why you had a mal, though there are sooo many variables that you can't be 100% sure that it's a packers fault, or body position fault or... so we just say "shit happened"

Maybe in milion year we'll have a device that will measure and watch every movement and action and will be able to tell if it was exaclty the same as the last time...

But i agree, you can't be sure that it's packers fault and can't blame him, it might be your bad body position or air turbulence, or whatever reason we don't know yet...

"George just lucky i guess!"

[ps5601 0]

While it isn't possible to prove 100% the cause of a malfunction, you also have to sometimes look at the statistics.

With just over 1200 jumps I have only used a packer on maybe a dozen occasions (different packers too). However I have yet to jump a pack job from a "professional" packer that actually opens nice. Can I prove that the link is the packers used? No. Does it look like the link is the fact that I didn't pack the rig myself? Yes.

In 1200 jumps I have had 1 brake fire (I jump an Atom, very good method of stowing brakes). The 1 time I had not just a brake fire, but a DOUBLE brake fire! Just a coincidence? Possibly, but I suspect a packing error.

My advice, don't be so lazy and pack your own canopy - it's part of the sport (am not looking forward to my training camp when I will have to have a packer).

Blue Skies

Paul

[LearningTOfly 0]

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It was packed by a packer that admittedly said she was distracted during the packing and forgot to stow a toggle, thus spinning me up.

It's stuff like this that I really hate to hear about. When you're packing a canopy, you're arranging someone's first line of defese against doing battle with the gound at high speed. "Oopsie, I forgot" shouldn't cut it when a packer is experienced (say 100+ jobs) It should be a 100% effort and concentration task.

...speaking of which, I should take my own advice and get back to studying calc

But before I do I have to ask: what's up with messy pack jobs? And does anybody ever take note? (at smaller dz's) I know some DZ's hire kids to pack... it's cool to introduce them to the sport... but I wouldn't jump their job for a million dollars... they have material everywhere, the lines going to the sausage are spread over a 12-14 inch area. I think sometimes that because the kids are kids, they don't quite understand the responsibility that they are given, and the grave results that can occur (no pun). I say this coming from being a packer before I could jump, so I have a little insight... It took about 30 packs to realize how much my job mattered, but throughout that time, and even now, no matter who I pack for, I pack one of the neatest and most critically examined jobs you'll see. and you guys who say "Don't worry...it's not a reserve.." can go bite a cowfish. End half rant on messy packing.

[speedy 0]

Pack jobs are only there to reduce wear on material. It's difficult to pack malfunctions unless you do do something really stupid.
Don't blame the packer unless he/she has done something really stupid.

just my 2 cents worth

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl