Casino sues to recoup unshuffled deck wins

[wayneflorida 0]

Crybabies.

Sure they don't want a jury trial.

http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2012/08/22/Casino-sues-to-recoup-unshuffled-deck-wins/UPI-57811345673146/

[davjohns 1]

I think the casino loses and the gamblers win. The gamblers had no duty to the casino. The casino would probably have better luck suing the ones they got the cards from. That's where the mistake was made.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[councilman24 37]

My guess is the dealer doesn't have a job.

I don't know much about casino operations but I would have expected the dealer to notice at least as soon as the players and stop dealing.

I'm very surprised if in LAW somewhere it says that a player can't play the cards they are dealt.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[jcd11235 0]

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My guess is the dealer doesn't have a job.

I don't know much about casino operations but I would have expected the dealer to notice at least as soon as the players and stop dealing.

Why? What would make the order of cards observed less likely than any other particular order?

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[billvon 3,120]

>Why? What would make the order of cards observed less likely than any other particular order?

It is MORE likely that a specific pattern (i.e. sequential) will continue than to suddenly become random, because there is a special case (i.e. original, from the factory, unshuffled cards) that becomes more likely once that pattern is observed.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Why? What would make the order of cards observed less likely than any other particular order?

That would depend on starting order and method and length of shuffeling.

[rehmwa 2]

the casino should sue the card suppliers of course

the gamblers played what they were dealt, I don't see the casino having any case against them. Though it wasn't really gambling once the players noticed, and the players are a bit jerky for taking advantage, but I doubt there's a legal issue

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[councilman24 37]

They were NOT shuffled. So coming out at ace, duece, trey, four, five of one suit, etc. might be easy to notice?

The players did and obviously changed their bets. The dealer apparently kept blindly pulling them from the shoe, for 41 bets!

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 37]

Again, "UNSHUFFLED".

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Again, "UNSHUFFLED".

That is at this point not a clear fact.

The deck was purchased as pre-shuffled. The cards came out in sequence. That does not mean the deck wasn't shuffled.

(I don't understand why the casino would not shuffle a new deck, regardless of how it should have been delivered from the supplier.)

[ryoder 1,590]

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(I don't understand why the casino would not shuffle a new deck, regardless of how it should have been delivered from the supplier.)

Bingo. It sounds like sloppiness on the part of the casino.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Remster 30]

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(I don't understand why the casino would not shuffle a new deck, regardless of how it should have been delivered from the supplier.)

Bingo. It sounds like sloppiness on the part of the casino.

It's probably not sloppiness.

They probably figured that they lost 2 hands per new decks if they have to shuffle them, at a new deck per, what, 2 hours, 4 hours, I dunno... And at a win rate of 60%, That probably translated to quite a bit more profit for them.

Remster

[theonlyski 8]

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(I don't understand why the casino would not shuffle a new deck, regardless of how it should have been delivered from the supplier.)

Bingo. It sounds like sloppiness on the part of the casino.

Perhaps they did, and it was the perfect shuffle at the manufacturer and another opposite but perfect shuffle at the casino that put the cards back in order.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
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[ryoder 1,590]

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Perhaps they did, and it was the perfect shuffle at the manufacturer and another opposite but perfect shuffle at the casino that put the cards back in order.

Well, yes, that is possible.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[jcd11235 0]

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>Why? What would make the order of cards observed less likely than any other particular order?

It is MORE likely that a specific pattern (i.e. sequential) will continue than to suddenly become random, because there is a special case (i.e. original, from the factory, unshuffled cards) that becomes more likely once that pattern is observed.

Except the default configuration from the factory is shuffled. So, while what you say holds true for the players (provided they don't know that the cards come pre-shuffled), it does not hold true with the dealer, who knows the cards come pre-shuffled. For the dealer, all permutations are equally likely.

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[jcd11235 0]

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They were NOT shuffled. So coming out at ace, duece, trey, four, five of one suit, etc. might be easy to notice?

The dealer thought they were shuffled. Coming out As, 2s, 3s, 4s, … is no less likely than coming out Kh, 2c, 7h, 8d, Qc, …. Further, the more experience the dealer has, the more likely it is that he has previously seen some card sequences from well shuffled decks that appeared non-random at first. That's just the nature of randomness.

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[jcd11235 0]

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The deck was purchased as pre-shuffled. The cards came out in sequence. That does not mean the deck wasn't shuffled.

This.

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[billvon 3,120]

>Except the default configuration from the factory is shuffled.

Right. However, it is not impossible that the factory made an error, and that that deck was actually not shuffled.

If you were dealing cards and you saw:

Two of spades
Two of diamonds
Two of clubs
Two of hearts
Three of spades
Three of diamonds
Three of clubs
Three of hearts
Four of spades
Four of diamonds
Four of clubs
Four of hearts

there are two possibilities. One is that they were actually randomly shuffled in that order. The odds of such a draw are 1 in 98 856 000 000 000 000 000. The second is that you got a wrong or incorrectly shuffled deck. People being fallible, the odds of that are probably less than 1 in 98 856 000 000 000 000 000.

Most people, upon seeing such a draw, would conclude that they had not been shuffled, and the next card drawn would be a five. And most of the time they'd be right.

[jcd11235 0]

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Perhaps they did, and it was the perfect shuffle at the manufacturer and another opposite but perfect shuffle at the casino that put the cards back in order.

Well, yes, that is possible.

Eight out shuffles (i.e., perfect riffle shuffles) will return a 52 card deck to its original order.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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>Except the default configuration from the factory is shuffled.

Right. However, it is not impossible that the factory made an error, and that that deck was actually not shuffled.

Yes, I agree that P(A) != P(A|B) when A and B are not independent. However, from the dealer's perspective, B is given, that is, to the best of the dealers knowledge, the cards were shuffled, so P(A) is irrelevant; only P(A|B) matters.

There's no reason for the dealer to be fired. The floorperson or the pit manager, OTOH …

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[oldwomanc6 60]

Every comment so far, has only proven that the patrons (gamblers) are NOT at fault.

The fault lies with the casino or their suppliers.

Everybody knows the chances are against you when you gamble against the house, and this proves you should never gamble if the house will come after you for winning.

Lose, Lose!

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[jakee 1,596]

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Coming out As, 2s, 3s, 4s, … is no less likely than coming out Kh, 2c, 7h, 8d, Qc, ….

The problem there is that the likelyhood of any specific sequence of reasonable length is infinitesimally small.

Therefore, if there was any likely prior sequence of events that could cause the cards to come out Kh, 2c, 7h, 8d, Qc etc. then you would expect the dealer to pick up on that too.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,596]

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Yes, I agree that P(A) != P(A|B) when A and B are not independent. However, from the dealer's perspective, B is given, that is, to the best of the dealers knowledge, the cards were shuffled, so P(A) is irrelevant; only P(A|B) matters.

So the best of the dealers knowledge is a certainty of better than a hundred billion billion to one?

The dealer is not a pre-programmed automaton.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

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So the best of the dealers knowledge is a certainty of better than a hundred billion billion to one?

The dealer is not a pre-programmed automaton.

Who said anything about a dealer being a pre-programed automaton?

The dealer's job is to deal the cards, not to pay attention to patterns in the cards as they come out. Any particular sequence of cards from a shuffled deck is equally improbable. The dealer was not responsible for shuffling; he was using decks that were, to the best of his knowledge, already shuffled. It's makes as little sense to blame the dealer as it does to blame the gamblers.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,120]

>The dealer's job is to deal the cards, not to pay attention to patterns in the cards
>as they come out.

A dealer has far more jobs than just "dealing the cards" which is why there's a bit of training involved. One of those jobs is to watch out for problems that will cost the house lots of money.

>Any particular sequence of cards from a shuffled deck is equally improbable.

If one had no knowledge that unshuffled cards come in a specific order, that would be true.

However, since dealers DO know that cards come in a specific order from the card company when not shuffled, the odds that he was seeing an unshuffled deck rapidly approached 1 as more cards were drawn. And once those odds were known, the odds that the next card was drawn would be the next in the series also approaches 1.