Collins Lanyard

[bkoch 0]

I have an Infinity container and use an RSL and I am interested in getting a Collin's lanyard because of my concern about an RSL side riser failure resulting in entanglement. Can I not get a Collin's lanyard because Relative Workshop has a pattent on it? Or can I have a rigger put one on even though I own an Infinity container? Is putting on a Collin's lanyard adviseable, or would it just complicate the rig unneccarily?
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Brad

[Tonto 1]

I've only used a Collins lanyard on RWS Tandem systems.

I don't use a rig equiped with an RSL, but if I did - I'd want a Collins on it. Judging by your profile you weigh in at about 230 with gear, right? So you're no lightweight. Are you using mini risers?

There are both positive and negative aspects to an RSL. I think the pros far outweigh the cons particularly on lower wingloadings or high workload to experience situations.

Not sure about patents - but RWS has the patent on the 3 ring release and the throw0out pilot chute - and plenty of people are using those...

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[3ringheathen 0]

My .02:
It's an added complication that, in my opinion, is not worth the trouble for sport gear. I'm not talking about tandems.

I think you're better off sticking with a standard RSL and good gear maintenance.

Inspect your gear regularly. Look for signs of wear and abrasion on the risers. Don't drag your rig accross the ground when packing. Use a packing mat or move your d-bag towards the rig as you stow your lines.

Properly taken care of, there's no reason that your risers should ever fail.

Having said that, now would be a good time to ask a rigger to review gear inspection with you.
You're thinking about it, which is good, and you've got more experience than when you first got licensed.
You'll probably absorb more knowledge this time around.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[Tink1717 2]

The best place to ask this question would be the gear maker. There you can get the facts, here you just get opinions. Ask the rig maker.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[riggerrob 643]

Currently Collins lanyards and Skyhooks are only available on containers made by Relative Workshop.
It will be another year or three before they start licensing that technology to other manufacturers.
Ergo, you cannot retrofit a Skyhook or Collins lanyard to your Infinity.

[Tink1717 2]

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Currently Collins lanyards and Skyhooks are only available on containers made by Relative Workshop.
It will be another year or three before they start licensing that technology to other manufacturers.
Ergo, you cannot retrofit a Skyhook or Collins lanyard to your Infinity.

Which was one of the reasons I told him to call the maker. The maker would have a better idea of when such things will be available for license from Booth & company. Also, they would be better able to tell him that it would be a good/bad idea.

Whenever you have questions like this one, always start with the maker. Why go with opinion in place of fact?

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[pilotdave 0]

You really think infinity is gonna tell him a collins lanyard is a great idea? They can tell him he can't have one, but do you really think they're going to say it's a good idea? You don't get ONLY facts from manufacturers, you get marketing. Think if you call up RWS they'll tell you an infinity is just as good even though it has no collins lanyard?

Dave

[diablopilot 2]

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You really think infinity is gonna tell him a collins lanyard is a great idea?

Maybe. Kelly F is one who still seems to show that he'd rather a customer be happy, and comfetable with what they get, vs. making the sale. Rare, but appreciated.

As for a Collins Lanyard, I think it's somthing I'd like to see on EVERY RSL equiped rig. So far I've only ever seen them on the Sigma, and some Eclipse Tandem containers. It's a simple device that make a whole lot of sense.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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It's an added complication that, in my opinion, is not worth the trouble for sport gear.

So is an RSL, or SkyHook.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[KellyF 16]

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You really think infinity is gonna tell him a collins lanyard is a great idea? They can tell him he can't have one, but do you really think they're going to say it's a good idea? You don't get ONLY facts from manufacturers, you get marketing. Think if you call up RWS they'll tell you an infinity is just as good even though it has no collins lanyard?

Dave

Here was my Email response to Brad:
"Hi Brad,

We ship every Infinity with an RSL because we feel that we should give the
jumper the option to jump with or without the RSL without having to pay extra
for it. Currently, the Collins Lanyard is a patented device that, to the best
of my knowledge, has never been licensed to any manufacturer outside of the
Relative Workshop, so it is not available on the Infinity. For sport use, we
feel that the RSL is sufficient due to the current construction method used for
Type 17 risers. We have never (to our knowledge) had a riser failure in the
field- either Type-17 or Type-8- and that includes some jumpers that are over
the legal 254 Lb. TSO weight limit jumping Type-17 risers with Microlined
canopies (all the bad no-no's).

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask!

Blue Skies!
Kelly"

I'll also add that RWS didn't put the Collins Lanyard on sport rigs equipped with an RSL before the Skyhook became available, unless specifically asked for (to my understanding).

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[pilotdave 0]

Ok maybe infinity was a bad example.... switch that to mirage!



But still, I wonder if RWS agrees with:

"For sport use, we feel that the RSL is sufficient due to the current construction method used for Type 17 risers."

I'm not saying you're wrong or that isn't how you really feel, I'm saying that I'm willing to bet there's another manufacturer out there that believes every RSL equipped rig should have a collins lanyard. Who's right? There's a lot of marketing in both arguments when they come from manufacturers. But thanks for posting your response!

Dave

[mjosparky 4]

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Ok maybe infinity was a bad example.... switch that to mirage!

When you hear from the manufacture of Mirage, who will you switch it to?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[3ringheathen 0]

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It's an added complication that, in my opinion, is not worth the trouble for sport gear.

So is an RSL, or SkyHook.

He was asking about the Collin's lanyard.
Without getting into the RSL debate, I happen to think that typically, the pros of an RSL outway the cons.
Especially for a low time jumper that's not wearing a bunch of camera equipment and probably not doing CRW.
While there are very real cons to an RSL, the problem they address is failure to deploy a reserve after cuttting away. Unfortunately, history has shown this to be a very real, and not all that rare problem.

In contrast, the Collins lanyard potentially helps if one has riser failure. To my knowledge, this is pretty much a non-existent problem on sport gear and easily avoided with good maintenance.
So the potential benefit is very small at best.

See the difference?

At any rate, it appears to be a moot point because he apparantly can't put the Collins lanyard on his Infinity anyway. I don't think he's missing out on anything.

I don't know enough about the skyhook to offer an opinion on it.

-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[councilman24 37]

If you'd been around longer you would know that Bill Booth has never supported RSL's, until the Collins lanyard. Of course the main argument was that you should decide every cutaway whether to release the shackle and fall free first or not. That argument hasn't went away but Bill has apparently decided the skyhook and collins lanyard make that arguement moot. I'm not sure it does, even thought I don't agree with it.

I have always disagreed with him and supported RSL's, as have many others. But, in the old days when they were more controversial I'd give Bill's position paper along with a pro position paper to newbies and let them decide.

I jump a RSL on both my freefall rigs, but not on my CRW rig.

A Skyhook and Collins lanyard aren't features that would figure into my current choice of rig. They are for some.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[pilotdave 0]

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If you'd been around longer you would know that Bill Booth has never supported RSL's, until the Collins lanyard.

Which supports exactly what I'm saying. How do I know that Manufacturer X doesn't feel the same way, when in reality the only reason they don't offer rigs with collins lanyards is that they can't. They aren't going to advertise (for the most part) that a collins lanyard is an essential part of a proper RSL system.

I'd rather hear YOUR opinion on a matter like that. RWS, who happens to sell rigs with the collins lanyard, says (according to what you said) that it is essential. Infinity says that since risers almost never break it really doesn't make any difference. Both have a stake in their argument. I'm not saying either one is lying... I'm just saying that a manufacturer may not be the best place to ask for advice on this sort of thing.

Dave

[riggerrob 643]

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If you'd been around longer you would know that Bill Booth has never supported RSL's, until the Collins lanyard.

Which supports exactly what I'm saying. How do I know that Manufacturer X doesn't feel the same way, when in reality the only reason they don't offer rigs with collins lanyards is that they can't. They aren't going to advertise (for the most part) that a collins lanyard is an essential part of a proper RSL system.

I'd rather hear YOUR opinion on a matter like that. RWS, who happens to sell rigs with the collins lanyard, says (according to what you said) that it is essential. Infinity says that since risers almost never break it really doesn't make any difference. Both have a stake in their argument. I'm not saying either one is lying... I'm just saying that a manufacturer may not be the best place to ask for advice on this sort of thing.

Dave

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Your argument makes as much sense the People's Front for the Liberation of Judea's manifesto that a man has the right to have a baby!

[mjosparky 4]

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If you'd been around longer you would know that Bill Booth has never supported RSL's, until the Collins lanyard.

Which supports exactly what I'm saying. How do I know that Manufacturer X doesn't feel the same way, when in reality the only reason they don't offer rigs with collins lanyards is that they can't. They aren't going to advertise (for the most part) that a collins lanyard is an essential part of a proper RSL system.

I'd rather hear YOUR opinion on a matter like that. RWS, who happens to sell rigs with the collins lanyard, says (according to what you said) that it is essential. Infinity says that since risers almost never break it really doesn't make any difference. Both have a stake in their argument. I'm not saying either one is lying... I'm just saying that a manufacturer may not be the best place to ask for advice on this sort of thing.

Dave

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Your argument makes as much sense the People's Front for the Liberation of Judea's manifesto that a man has the right to have a baby!

Bawaaawhawaw!

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[KellyF 16]

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If you'd been around longer you would know that Bill Booth has never supported RSL's, until the Collins lanyard.

Which supports exactly what I'm saying. How do I know that Manufacturer X doesn't feel the same way, when in reality the only reason they don't offer rigs with collins lanyards is that they can't. They aren't going to advertise (for the most part) that a collins lanyard is an essential part of a proper RSL system.

I'd rather hear YOUR opinion on a matter like that. RWS, who happens to sell rigs with the collins lanyard, says (according to what you said) that it is essential. Infinity says that since risers almost never break it really doesn't make any difference. Both have a stake in their argument. I'm not saying either one is lying... I'm just saying that a manufacturer may not be the best place to ask for advice on this sort of thing.

Dave

Well, here's some basic history on RSL's and riser breakage: "back in the day" you could get your rig (any, I believe) equipped with an RSL and NON-reinforced Ty-17 risers. Then Ty-17 risers started to break and it was determined (at least at RWS) that RSL's and Ty-17 risers together were bad juju. RWS reinforced the Ty-17 riser with two additional layers of 1" Ty-3 tape, but still did not recommend them when an RSL was going to be used. After the Ty-17 riser was redesigned AGAIN in 8/98 to incorporate a third layer of 1" Ty-3. At this time RWS deemed Ty-17 risers strong enough to be used with an RSL. The Collins Lanyard was devised as a solution to a problem for TANDEM riser breakage. Even after the invention of the Collins Lanyard, it was not incorporated into Vector sport rigs that were built with an RSL (to the best of my knowledge- you can check by looking at any V-3 built after '98. It should have the velcro in place up the right side of the yoke for the RSL, and some sort of provision under the yoke for the left side cutaway housing to be split- like two anchor points for the housing to be attached to) until the Skyhook came along. I'm still not 100% sure on why it is so critical on one type of RSL and not the other (based on RWS's actions).

FWIW, I've read the patent for the Collins lanyard and there now seems to be a rather large loophole that would allow other manufacturers to use the lanyard if a part of the container system was changed. Would it hold up in court? I don't know, and can't afford to find out, but as long as risers are staying intact, I don't see a need to push the issue.

Another quick point about the Collins Lanyard- it adds another step when simply cleaning your cutaway cables during the monthly maintenance (we all do that, RIGHT?)- you have to make sure that the left side cutaway cable is routed back through the lanyard when reassembling the system.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You really think infinity is gonna tell him a collins lanyard is a great idea? They can tell him he can't have one, but do you really think they're going to say it's a good idea? You don't get ONLY facts from manufacturers, you get marketing. Think if you call up RWS they'll tell you an infinity is just as good even though it has no collins lanyard?

Sometimes the answer is given by marketing, sometimes by Legal. It looks instead that you got a pretty direct answer from infinity, but I think your point is that they might have given the same answer even if they did believe the Collins option would be better, yes?

That's where asking here in addition to talking with them has value.

[pilotdave 0]

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That's where asking here in addition to talking with them has value.

Exactly. I'm not arguing for or against the collins lanyard. I'm arguing against ONLY getting advice from one manufacturer when it comes to a feature only offered on certain rigs. Javelins don't have secondary riser covers right? Do you think they tell customers (or potential customers) that secondary riser covers make a rig safer? The truth may very well be that secondary riser covers don't make a rig safer, which I've read on here a number of times and just don't believe but that's a totally different story. But is Sunpath the right place to ask that question? Probably not. And RWS isn't either (though I'm sure someone will quote Bill Booth saying that secondary riser covers are for marketing only or whatever someone has posted a few times).

My original post was to Tink, who said that it's best to contact the manufacturer to get answers to all those questions. I think it's best to post right here, and contact the manufacturer too if you want. But hey, when the manufacturer posts here, why do it twice?

Dave

[mjosparky 4]

Do you really believe it is better to seek information about your gear on a public forum then it is to contact the manufacture or a trusted rigger in your area?
Is that the same route you take when you have a question about an A/C you are flying? Forget the A/P or the manufacture, got to the net.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[pilotdave 0]

Well, I'd obviously go to Cessna or whatever if I had a question specific to the type of aircraft. But if I wanted to know how valuable a FADEC is in a general aviation aircraft, cessna, which doesn't offer FADECs, would probably be the wrong place to ask. How about the Lancair Columbia vs the Cirrus SR20 (or 22 or whatever)... 2 very similar aircraft in almost every respect, but the Cirrus comes standard with a ballistic recovery system, which isn't offered at all on the Lancair. I wouldn't ask either company if a ballistic recovery system is a very important safety feature. If I owned a Lancair and wanted to install a BRS system, sure, the manufacturer would be a good place to ask. But read the original post. He was asking a lot more than "Can I get a collins lanyard installed in an infinity?"

Asking a local rigger works too. But how do you know if your rigger knows anything about the subject? My first rigger, a very experienced master rigger, turned out to be a compulsive liar of sorts. Ok, odd situation. But guess where many riggers get information about controversial issues like collins lanyards or skyhooks, or anything else. Yeah, dropzone.com. Not every rigger has had 30 years of experience and seen it all. In fact, most haven't. I've heard riggers say things that are just plain wrong, and I've heard riggers say "I read on dropzone.com that..." In fact, the easiest access to a very highly qualified rigger most people have is right here. Not saying there aren't plenty on my DZ, but my DZ is over an hour away and it's winter. And after asking a trusted rigger, I'm left with only one opinion. And it's ALLLLLL opinion in this sport. If there were any facts, every rig would be exactly the same. Ok, not quite.
By the way, I'm on a mailing list for Grumman owners. Email from strangers is EXACTLY how hundreds of people get advice on many many issues. Nobody was making Grumman aircraft for years, and not everybody has a trusted, grumman familiar A&P on call 24/7. No, you're not gonna go install a turbine engine in your grumman after reading how to do it on the internet. But you might learn how to prevent your nosewheel from shimmying or the proper way to install an aileron, which your A&P might not be familiar with if he's never done it (on a grumman) before.

Dave

[mjosparky 4]

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But guess where many riggers get information about controversial issues like collins lanyards or skyhooks, or anything else. Yeah, dropzone.com.

Wrong answer, I assure you riggers do not get their information on dz.com. and more then you got the information on how to fly from a public forum that chats about "how to".

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In fact, most haven't. I've heard riggers say things that are just plain wrong,

Do you feel qualified to determine when a rigger is wrong? I think you might be over estimating your knowledge in the field of aerodynamic decelerators.

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And it's ALLLLLL opinion in this sport. If there were any facts, every rig would be exactly the same. Ok, not quite.

Not quite by a long shot. There is a large opinion factor in this sport, but there is a tremendous amount of proven knowledge. The simple fact that you are not aware of it does not mean it is not there. All you have to do is spend the time and effort to find it, thats what FAA certified riggers have done.

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but the Cirrus comes standard with a ballistic recovery system, which isn't offered at all on the Lancair. I wouldn't ask either company if a ballistic recovery system is a very important safety feature.

Judging from recent history I would say can be a very important feature. Just a few months ago there were 3 saves by a ballistic recovery system on the Cirrus. One in Canada and 2 in Florida. All on the same weekend.
And that is not opinion, it is fact. I got these facts from the manufacture.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[AggieDave 6]

Instead of the two of you drawing a line in the sand on both sides of the issue, I'd like to make a suggestion/comment.

Asking for advice/knowledge online or seeking out other sources online isn't necissarily a bad thing. As long as you temper it with knowledge from a trusted and reliable source such as a trusted rigger and the manufacture. If anything it may give you a perspective that you may not have otherwise seen, or it may help you come up with how you want to form your questions for the manufacture or rigger so you truely know what you're looking for, instead of asking about that "RSL cutaway thingy."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[teason 0]

I think you've been stung by bad riggers. They're out just like there are bad pilots (I knew one that climbed a 206 at 14 gallons, thought the temp gauges were broken).
Bad riggers, like bad pilots, are the exception, not the rule. Yes there are those who would rather "make stuff up" than admit that they don't know something but they represent a minority of riggers.

The real unfortunate thing is if you're not a rigger yourself, how can you tell the bad ones?

Sorry I'm a bit off topic here

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.