HaulinAss 0 #1 November 30, 2004 Hello everyone, I am wondering if an older Vector III can get an RSL put on. Is it a huge modification? Expensive? Do I have to send it in? Would it need a reserve repack? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #2 November 30, 2004 You can get a skyhook mod done for around $275 Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #3 November 30, 2004 Email Louie Palomares at Relative Workshop. He will have a good answer for you. louie@relativeworkshop.comArrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #4 November 30, 2004 Kind of a continuation to Rdutch's post. Look at a video of the people test-jumping the skyhooks... it's amazing, skyhooook!!! BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 November 30, 2004 Ray, you're jumping video alot, right? You jumping the SkyHook as well? An RSL can be retrofitted to a VEctor 3 in a couple ways....best is probably to get the manufacturer to do it, since the RWS has their own type. Other mods are avaliable however.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #6 November 30, 2004 I actually put a lot of thought into it, I have the skyhook on my rigs. I would connect it for fun jumps, disconnect it sometimes for video, ect. Now my skyhook is on always. I have done a lot of intentional cutaways with the skyhook, so I base my ideas on that. My camera is on the left side, and my skyhook is on the right so it would be really hard to catch it on my camera. Also I had a bad year for cutaways last year all with my camera, and most of them pretty ugly jumping a Velo 84 (old PC F111 with over 1500 jumps on it, since replaced very nice openings). But after all the rides I had both intentional and unintentional, all wearing a camera I feel pretty safe jumping a camera with the skyhook. That is the main reason I like the skyhook, small canopies loose a lot of altitude when they mal, and since Im a high puller the only time I would need a skyhook (in theory) is if I ride a mal down too long. No system is perfect, but I do trust the skyhook, Ive seen it in action a lot, and I have used it myself. Bill has thought of more stuff to try and were going to do it. Look at the PIA and see the new results for the skyhook Im sure you will be impressed. Also for the people that think that RWS actually went and engineered the skyhook to release the freebag more to sell more freebag's, there is a new design that actually increases the chance that the freebag will stay with the main while making sure in a total the pc will cleanly extract the reserve and disconnect from the skyhook. If you are jumping a camera, with or without the skyhook, the only way to be safe is to make sure you have a clean setup. Try and reduce snagpoints and keep everything clean. Skyhook, Rsl or without any reserve assist all can cause problems if you get lines hung up on your helmet. Also if your jumping camera its very important to deploy stable. Oh yeah this is all my personal theory, look into everything you do very well from all directions and make up your own mind. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #7 November 30, 2004 Ray, if the Skyhook were not avaliable, would you jump your camera set up with an RSL?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #8 November 30, 2004 QuoteOh yeah this is all my personal theory, look into everything you do very well from all directions and make up your own mind. That is one of the most valuable things I have seen posted in a long time. Making an informed decision after doing research and getting several experienced opinions, including the manufacturer can yield excellent results,Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #9 November 30, 2004 QuoteRay, if the Skyhook were not avaliable, would you jump your camera set up with an RSL? Hell No! Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #10 November 30, 2004 What camera setup do you have? I got a Skyhook on my rig, but I've always disconnected it for camera jumps (especially w/ stills). I've got an optik illusion w/ a side mount. Dave______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 November 30, 2004 QuoteHell No! I am sure you know where I was going with this, but there is no snag difference between the Skyhook and a standard RSL.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #12 November 30, 2004 Jumping a highly loaded canopy with an RSL offers a great chance of tumbling and having your reserve pc, as well as your reserve canopy lines and all get an extraction across anywhere, as opposed to the skyhook which offers a clean extraction and transition. Thats why I would jump a skyhook as opposed to an RSL. The chance of my Camera getting caught on the RSL was a thought but after I looked into it I decided the risk was minimal with my camera on the other side. I also take that into account with my cutaway procedures, but no system is perfect. I guess to make it simple I wouldn't jump a regular RSL camera or not. IMO there is a significant snag difference between the skyhook and a standard RSL. But the snag difference isn't at the RSl attachment point to the risers its further down the chain of events. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 December 1, 2004 QuoteJumping a highly loaded canopy with an RSL offers a great chance of tumbling I disagree. Quote I guess to make it simple I wouldn't jump a regular RSL camera or not. IMO there is a significant snag difference between the skyhook and a standard RSL. But the snag difference isn't at the RSl attachment point to the risers its further down the chain of events. The idea about not jumping an RSL with camera is to ensure that your main is completely away, and not hung up on your helmet before your reserve is deployed. The SkyHook in no way changes this. I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong, I'm just trying to let the people who read this realize that the Skyhook is simply a faster RSL, but it is STILL and RSL! Nothing magic about it.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bliston 0 #14 December 1, 2004 I think I disagree that the skyhook is "still an RSL, nothing magic about it." It's a different animal. I have used the skyhook twice (once intentional and once "live"). The skyhook turns your reserve deployment almost into a direct bag deployment. That's a big difference from simply quickly extracting the reserve pin and and letting the reserve PC do it's normal job. With the skyhook, in a spinning or violent mal, you never go unstable relative to your deploying reserve. For my "live" cutaway, I was spinning fast and on my back, but had an almost immediate, on-heading reserve deployment. With the skyhook, you and your reserve might be horizontal in relation to the ground, but the reserve will always be deploying directly over your head. This isn't the case with a normal RSL and where if you cutaway from a violent mal you might be on your back or otherwise unstable through the reserve deployment. This difference, along with the fact that during a low speed mal, the skyhook uses main to get your reserve to linestretch much faster than the reserve pilot chute can, puts the skyhook in a whole different league. I know the skyhook is still relatively new and don't expect everyone to start jumping it tomorrow, but like Ray, I've thought it through and use it on every jump. I'd encourage anybody that's got a Vector III to read up and talk to knowledgable people to get a full understanding of how it works and decide whether it's right for them. It's my understanding that as long as there is pile sewn down over the right side of the yoke, the rig can be modified for the skyhook. BenMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #15 December 1, 2004 QuoteThe skyhook turns your reserve deployment almost into a direct bag deployment. True. QuoteWith the skyhook, in a spinning or violent mal, you never go unstable relative to your deploying reserve. False. It can be done, there is much less time to do it in however. QuoteWith the skyhook, you and your reserve might be horizontal in relation to the ground, but the reserve will always be deploying directly over your head.*** False. This isn't the case with a normal RSL and where if you cutaway from a violent mal you might be on your back or otherwise unstable through the reserve deployment. False. You can easily be deploying on your back with a Skyhook system. All you need is a spinning mal. Fact is chopping with an RSL, a Skyhook or without either in a spinning mal, back to earth situation produces the EXACT sape body position at the moment of release. The device or lack there of is what determines how fast your reserve canopy is activated and deployed. With a standard RSL you will sill have a proper "into the relative wind" deployment in that situation. Quoteputs the skyhook in a whole different league. How so? Because it's a faster deploying RSL? It's a neat device and has merrit, but too many people assume it's "different" than an RSL. One of the long standing arguments against RSL's is people's desire to be sure they are clear of their main prior to deplying there reserves. These people usually include camerapersons, CRW dogs, SkySurfers, and anyone that is at risk for an entanglement of sorts. The Skyhook DOES NOT address this problem at all, there for those who do not jump an RSL for the above reason, should not look to the Skyhook to be any different. The Skyhook does address the issue of unstable reserve deployments post breakaway. However there is really no reason to be unstable post breakaway. Many of the unstable reserve deployments that occur are cause through people's incorrect belief that they MUST get belly to earth prior to reserve deployment. Simply not true. Actually the most efficient post breakaway orientation would be feet into the relative wind, which would provide the least burble for the reserve P/C and subsiquent canopy deployment and would impart the least amount of force on both the jumper and that which is transmited from harness to canopy. Besides, how many incidents have you read about that involve unstable reserve deployments. Reserves are TESTED and TSO'd in unstable configurations.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bliston 0 #16 December 1, 2004 Definitely some good points in the above reply, but I'll still stick to my guns on a couple of things: 1. The speed in which the skyhook brings the reserve to line stretch during a spinning or violent mal would make it extremely challenging to "go unstable" even it the jumper was TRYING TO. 2. With the skyhook, you and your reserve might be horizontal in relation to the ground, but the reserve will always be deploying directly over your head. By this I mean in line with your body, not over your head in relation to gravity. I am far from an expert on skyhooks both in terms of experience with them and in terms of knowledge of the physics behind how they work, but I'd encourage you to jump the system on a tertiary rig to feel it for yourself. The reserve becomes almost like an extension of your main rather than a separate deployment. In fact it is. Risers connect to RSL, RSL connects to Skyhook, and the Skyhook is sewn down to the reserve bridle. I'm not smart enough to explain it any better than that. We might see things differently, or disagree on this, which is fine. I just thought I'd clarify my words if they were misinterpreted from the last post. I, in fact, was on my back when my reserve deployed, but my reserve deployed horizontally, much like a main would during a hop and pop. I don't consider this being unstable, but I would consider being on my back as my reserve deployed by my side, or I getting entangled with my reserve bridle, to be unstable. You do make a good point about the ideal reserve deployment position being "feet towards the relative wind" and I completely agree with you. Maybe body position doesn't matter that much, but regardless of what reserves are tested for (unstable or stable deployments), I just prefer to have my body be in line with my deploying reserve. The skyhook helps this happen. 3. I think (and again it's fine for people to have different opinions) that the skyhook is a different league because it drastically increases your chances that your body will be "in line" with the deploying reserve and can put an open reserve over your head in less than a hundred feet from where your risers release. An RSL does not offer those. I've known some very experienced jumpers that have ended up very low after a violent mal and one that went in under a partially inflated reserve. Yes, we should all deploy high enough to deal with any problem, etc, etc, but sometimes **it happens, and the skyhook gives you more time. It also gives you a chance from a 600ft. wrap or collision. Todd Hawkins' incident for example - Thank God he's recovering as well as he is, but I wonder if a skyhook could have helped him walk away from that low canopy collision. Having more altitude to get to an open landing area and see where my chopped gear goes also helps the skyhook make sense for me to use. The more limited advantages that a traditional RSL offers have never made using one appealing to me, and I jumped without one for 8 years. To each his own. I agree with you that the skyhook doesn't answer all the questions and for the types of jumpers you mentioned that want to be sure they don't have any equipment hung up on their main before deploying their reserve. I'll quit rambling, seeing as how I have no real stake in this discussing. Hope this posting helped clarify my views. It wasn't meant to antagonize you. BenMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #17 December 1, 2004 Can anyone who has experienced or watched skyhook deployments tell me whether it appeared that there was a greater chance of the recently cut away main falling onto or into the newly inflated reserve. To ask another way - is there an increased chance of a collision with the deflated or deflating main? Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #18 December 1, 2004 > Can anyone who has experienced or watched skyhook deployments >tell me whether it appeared that there was a greater chance of the recently >cut away main falling onto or into the newly inflated reserve. I've watched several - both in the air and on video - and there is, of course, a nearly 100% chance of the freebag becoming entangled with the main; that's how it's supposed to work. But I've never seen a case where this hampered deployment of the reserve, or where the reserve "flew into" the main. (Well, one guy circled the main on purpose but that doesn't count.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #19 December 2, 2004 When I first conceived the Skyhook, I to was worried about colliding with the recently broken away main. However, after watching literally hundreds of Skyhook breakaways. I can tell you that it does not seem to be a problem. If your main is directly overhead when you breakaway, the forward surge on reserve opening carries you away from your released main, even if it is a bag lock. If you are spinning when you breakaway, your angular acceleration ("centifugal force" to those of you who aren't physics majors) "throws" you away from the broken away main, often up to 50 feet. There are over 3,000 Skyhook equipped rigs out there now, in actual field conditions, with real (not test) jumpers, so almost every kind of main malfunction that can happen probably already has. Even I, whose job it is to worry about everything, am beginning to feel very good about this device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #20 December 2, 2004 QuoteIt wasn't meant to antagonize you. Wasn't feeling antagonized.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
judedre 0 #21 December 3, 2004 thats it im gettin a new vector 3 with a skyhooK!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #22 December 3, 2004 Good for you.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #23 December 3, 2004 QuoteI am wondering if an older Vector III can get an RSL put on. Is it a huge modification? Expensive? Do I have to send it in? Would it need a reserve repack? Thanks I who *HATE* RSL's....Am thinking about having RWS put a skyhook on my rig."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #24 December 3, 2004 BTW, watch out for factory packjob prices. I love RWS, but they charge an arm and a leg for reserve and main packjobs. I think a guy I know was charged $80 for the reserve and $40 for the main after getting a skyhook installed. Shipping would probably be cheaper without the main installed anyway. I guess you could get it shipped back with the reserve unpacked too... Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #25 December 3, 2004 QuoteIf you are spinning when you breakaway, your angular acceleration ("centifugal force" to those of you who aren't physics majors) "throws" you away from the broken away main, often up to 50 feet. There are over 3,000 Skyhook equipped rigs out there now, in actual field conditions, with real (not test) jumpers, so almost every kind of main malfunction that can happen probably already has. Even I, whose job it is to worry about everything, am beginning to feel very good about this device. Well, as 1 of those 3,000 and having used the device in my one cutaway I’m a fan! I had a violent spinning mal (which I didn’t think I could do on a Sabre 2 190 but it happened) and cutaway back to earth. Before I knew it I had a perfect, fully inflated reserve above me! After talking to my local master rigger and having him go through the details of the device I don’t know why I would personally (given the type of skydiving I do) ever jump without one. I get a little grief from some more experienced jumpers about having an “RSL” but typically they don’t understand the difference between and RSL and a Skyhook. After some explanation they typically accept my reasoning for it and a few have talked about retrofitting their rigs."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
