How to combine the features of RWS & PdF Toggles?

[Falko 0]

Having read this thread in the S&T Forum, I've thought about how to combine the nice features of RWS-Risers and Parachute-de-France Risers.

Quoting from my original post:

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I've looked at the photos in the Manual of the TruLok Risers, trying to understand in which way they are "locked" (as the name suggests).

It seems a toggle could accidentally be released by the slider-grommet slamming down on it, or by pulling the slider down to store it behind your neck. Since I don't have RWS-Risers, can someone confirm please?

[skipped question related to the incident]

I jump an Atom Legend and find the way the toggles are stored to be very secure, while still convenient to pack and easy to release in flight. (What I don't like about the PdF-Risers is them being reversed, but that's another Thread!)

See the Pdf-Riser Manual (page 4).

The "nose" of the PdF-Toggles is made up of a Pin (very similar to that on the TruLok Risers) which prevents the slider grommets from ever touching it on deployment. The pin lays snug on the riser so that the diameter of the slider grommet is too wide to allow touching the nose.

Secondly, the Toggles have two stiff folds of fabric (attachment points) pointing downwards, so that even if the slider would rub on the toggles, they wouldn't come unstowed. The opposite is the case: The toggle would become "even more stowed" (if that's possible at all).

Once you've stored the slider, you release the toggles with a quick movement upwards, so the 2 attachment points come out of their pockets, then pull down so the nose-pin releases. It sounds more complicated than it is, it's all "one" quick movement.

Anyway, this post is not about bashing RWS risers. I very much like the way the TruLok Risers store the excess steering line. That's a good feature because you really don't need to worry about any loops and knots.

My question is:
How can the good features of the PdF Toggles (securing against accidental unstowing) and RWS Toggles (securing the excess steering line) be combined?

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[councilman24 37]

RWS's solution to grommets knocking toggles out is the "hood" of fabric rather than the "tunnel" of elastic often used as a keep for the nose. The grommet can't hit the end of the nose.

Toggles are still one aspect of H/C/s that everybody's different, everybody thinks they have the best, and I believe there is still room for improvement. PdF remind me of Zoo toggles from the late 70's - early 80's. Don't have a picture.

Of couse my first main, a PC, had real "toggles". Pieces of wooden dowel with a hole drill in them.

Of course on my old fart rigs the grommets can't get there anyway.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Falko 0]

Hi Terry,

That's funny, I was just about to post the following old quote of yours when I received the "Reply to your Post" email notification. I thought like "damn howTF does he know?"

Anyway, your quote which I found in this thread...

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My first impression was why go back to a metal pin on something in your hand during landing. You have to decide on whether you like it.

... suddenly made me aware of the fact that the metal pin of the RWS risers has the potential to puncture the hand, when one braces for impact with toggles in hand. Ouch!

Back to the current thread:

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RWS's solution to grommets knocking toggles out is the "hood" of fabric rather than the "tunnel" of elastic often used as a keep for the nose. The grommet can't hit the end of the nose.

But the grommet could still unstow the toggle just with the frictional force on it's way down the riser?

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PdF remind me of Zoo toggles from the late 70's - early 80's. Don't have a picture.

In which way are they similar?

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Of couse my first main, a PC, had real "toggles". Pieces of wooden dowel with a hole drill in them.

Like "Hippo" in this animation? (Source)

Ok I'm still thinking about how the PdF Risers could be modified so they would account for the excess steering line. Have something in mind already, will think about it on my way home.

Thanks for input!

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[mjosparky 4]

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PdF remind me of Zoo toggles from the late 70's - early 80's. Don't have a picture.

I agree, they are like or similar to Zoo toggles. As I remember they were a pretty good set up.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Falko 0]

A few pictures of my PdF-Risers/Toggles.
Seems to me that if properly stowed, a break fire is virtually impossible.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[Falko 0]

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RWS's solution to grommets knocking toggles out is the "hood" of fabric rather than the "tunnel" of elastic often used as a keep for the nose.

Is that "hood" also an elastic? If it is, could it become worn out at some point, so that the toggle-nose could slide out on a hard opening?
The way I understand the design, that hood is the only attachment point keeping the toggle in place.

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Toggles are still one aspect of H/C/s that everybody's different, everybody thinks they have the best, and I believe there is still room for improvement.

Of course I'm not "officially" qualified to judge the different designs... no rigger rating and all. But looking at different riser-designs with common sense gives some interesting food for thought.

I'm still pondering about a way to fixate the excess steering line so that it is really "locked" until one releases the toggle. Have something in mind, but...

So far I only see one less-than-perfect way:
Add another pocket on the back of the riser. (see photo).
It could be stitched on the riser once the canopy choice, i.e. the length of the excess steering line is known. Or the pocket could be much more longish, kinda one-size-fits-all.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[kallend 2,146]

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RWS's solution to grommets knocking toggles out is the "hood" of fabric rather than the "tunnel" of elastic often used as a keep for the nose.

Is that "hood" also an elastic? If it is, could it become worn out at some point, so that the toggle-nose could slide out on a hard opening?
The way I understand the design, that hood is the only attachment point keeping the toggle in place.

No, there is also a pin at the bottom of the toggle that locates in a pocket in the riser. This pin locks the bottom of the loop of excess steering line in place. The pin points upwards, so even if the top of the toggle is knocked out of its "hood", the tension in the line does not pull the bottom pin out.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[councilman24 37]

I see a major opportunity for screwing these up. If you put the pin through the cateye in the steering line and then THROUGH the riser ring instead of on top, the steering line can slide up and load the pin in the fabric keeper. I've seen this happen with regular nose toggles and newbies who thought the nose should go through the ring. Sometimes it holds but eventually it lets go. If people can do this with regular nose toggles it can happen MUCH easier with the pin that goes through the ring easily.

So, I guess the French still haven't come up with a fool proof toggle. I think a grommet could still pull this one out too. Especially with the bulk of tape that stands between the bottom nose and the pin.

Zoo toggles wouldn't work with sliders that come down. They had a line loop on the end and a pin sewn down a ways. The loop went through the cat eye, around the ring, back through a gromment in the toggle, and then the pin went through. Velcro held the folded tape and pin in place. But a grommet coming down would easily nock the pin out.

I'm to lazy to go take a picture.

BTW the hoods are usually binding tape.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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So, I guess the French still haven't come up with a fool proof toggle.

"Whenever someone invents a fool proof system, someone else comes up with a better fool."

That said, I think the PdF system is the most secure non-velcro system I've seen.

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I think a grommet could still pull this one out too. Especially with the bulk of tape that stands between the bottom nose and the pin.

There's actually very little bulk in the toggles. They're not made of type IV like most toggles, but of a thinner and narrower material.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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My question is:
How can the good features of the PdF Toggles (securing against accidental unstowing) and RWS Toggles (securing the excess steering line) be combined?

Replace the bottom tab on a Pdf-toggle with a trulok pin?

You will end up with a toggle with two metal pins on it, so if you're afraid of getting home-made piercings on landing this might not be the best solution for you.

[Falko 0]

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The way I understand the design, that hood is the only attachment point keeping the toggle in place.

No, there is also a pin at the bottom of the toggle that locates in a pocket in the riser.

Yes I noticed, but I didn't think it provided enough static friction to actually keep the toggle in place.

It seems to me that in your case you were just lucky that the pin didn't get pulled out by the steering line? Because:

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This pin locks the bottom of the loop of excess steering line in place. The pin points upwards, so even if the top of the toggle is knocked out of its "hood", the tension in the line does not pull the bottom pin out.

On Page 3, Picture 5 of this document it looks as if the direction of force of the pulling excess steering line would be downwards or at least sideways (relative to the riser), still allowing for the pin to become unstowed if the force is just great enough.
Maybe you could test that? Would be interesting to find out.
Thanks!

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[Falko 0]

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So, I guess the French still haven't come up with a fool proof toggle.

I'm German and don't know the French very well, but my guess is they simply didn't account for fools in skydiving, as it's a dangerous activity that requires alertness and precision. j/k

No seriously: I admit it's possible to mishandle the storing of these toggles, but with proper instruction it shouldn't be a problem. I never stored my brakes the wrong way in 500 jumps, simply because it feels "too easy" to put the pin through the grommet.
It does require a little sleight of hand.
(The girls tell me I have that skill, so no problem )

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I think a grommet could still pull this one out too. Especially with the bulk of tape that stands between the bottom nose and the pin.

I luckily only had very few really hard openings where the slider got slammed down so rapidly that it would end up with the grommets under or on the toggles. Even then it didn't dislocate the pin.

I tried it on the ground and didn't manage to get the toggles unstowed when:
(1) the riser was straight
and
(2) one pulled directly downwards (as the direction of force would be when the slider slams down)

But back to topic:
What do you think about the pocket that could be stitched to the back of the riser?
Would that void the TSO or would it only be a "minor modification"?

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[Falko 0]

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Replace the bottom tab on a Pdf-toggle with a trulok pin?

Hm no, that was my first thought too but it wouldn't work. The TruLok pin points upwards, thus allowing the excess steering line loop to be fixated between the toggle and the riser.

On the PdF-Risers, the lower of the two "stiff fabric pins" points downwards. So even if that was to be replaced with a metal pin, it wouldn't be a good idea to put it through the steering line loop as this would be the first step to a steering line knot.

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You will end up with a toggle with two metal pins on it, so if you're afraid of getting home-made piercings on landing this might not be the best solution for you.

Nope don't want a metal pin near my palm!
The Nose pin of the PdF-Toggles doesn't seem that dangerous to me because it lays on top of the hand where the steering line is attached to the toggle. Unlikely that I will use the top of my hand to brace for impact.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[councilman24 37]

Main risers are not part of the TSO'd components at this time, so you're not going to void the TSO.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[dragon2 2]

Apperantly not, as my last reserve ride was (probably) due to a brike fire (PdF risers).... My slack goes underneath the toggle though, instead of at the back of the riser, and since I've had my brake lines lengthened there is a lot of it (it's folded double two times). This makes the toggle stand out a bit, and this coupled with the fact that these are somewhat older toggles which are not so stiff anymore, makes the bottom end of the toggle wanting to come loose sometimes when packing... If your risers are newer, did they change the design?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 2]

Never saw anybody do that, but it is very easy to put the pin THROUGH the cateye, I mean through the line itself. This of course damages your steering lines in time, so don't do that

My own risers are very easy to screw up, in a lot of interesting ways, but then I have modded triple-risers (made from 2 pairs of very short PdF risers). Love these risers though

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[luis 0]

Actually RWS pin is kind of on the back of of your hand when toggles are released... but I don't think it makes much difference when you are plf'ing, rolling, sliding with your hands all over the place . A metal pin is still a metal pin, and I'm still suspicious about it

...but I switched from original Mirage to RWS risers on my G3 for all the reasons mentioned in this thread, but mostly for the most secure method to stow excess break line I could find. ~300 jumps later I still feel this was a good decision.
I also considered PdF risers at that time, but the toggles are just too narrow for my taste - felt kind of too easy to loose, especially with gloves. I don't think it proves anything, but we had couple of guys loosing toggles this year - both on PdF risers. One ended up with shattered femur

So I vote for TruLok from RWS

[Falko 0]

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This makes the toggle stand out a bit, and this coupled with the fact that these are somewhat older toggles which are not so stiff anymore [....]

I'd like to blame it on that fact!

I just tried again to unstow the toggles just by pulling downwards, to no avail! (With a taut riser)

Then again, who knows which weird things can happen in a bad opening: If I can manually unstow them by pushing upwards+pulling downwards, it's also possible that they could become unstowed accidentally. There's no 100% failsafe system.
Still I find that the PdF Toggles have the most secure fastening method I've seen so far.

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If your risers are newer, did they change the design?

I can't tell, don't have a picture of your risers. Would you upload a photo?

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[dragon2 2]

The tape for stowing the slack is beneath the toggles on my rig, on yours it is on the back of the risers. The rest is the same.

Don't want to buy new risers, I like mine the way they are. Maybe changing the location of the tape-for-slack would work for me... Or buying new toggles...

I liked the other (older??) PdF design, the one with the pink toggles and the 2 snap buttons. Of course the buttons had to be good, and the way the slack was stowed could make it difficult to pull your slider over the toggles, but I'd doubt those brakes ever came loose!! In fact I know of one girl who cut her main away because she could not get the toggles unstowed on the rig she'd rented. she'd never seen this system before and didn't know you have to pull away and up from the riser to get them to release. I didn't either, and also got that same rig, ready-packed, but I did manage to unstow them after 2 tries Jumped that system for a while on my own rig, until I switched to shorter risers so I could reach my slider...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Falko 0]

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Actually RWS pin is kind of on the back of of your hand when toggles are released...

Didn't know that, thanks for the info.

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but I don't think it makes much difference when you are plf'ing, rolling, sliding with your hands all over the place .

OK, agreed.

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A metal pin is still a metal pin, and I'm still suspicious about it

Yup don't poke yourself in the eye when you're taking of your goggles or so.

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RWS risers [....] the most secure method to stow excess break line I could find.

It really has, which is why I'd like to see the two systems combined somehow. Would make for the "perfect toggle".

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I also considered PdF risers at that time, but the toggles are just too narrow for my taste

That's exactly what I like about them. I like the feeling of increased pressure as compared to "broader" toggles. It's really a matter of taste.

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I don't think it proves anything, but we had couple of guys loosing toggles this year - both on PdF risers.

Only proves to me that it's a bad idea to not enclose a toggle in the fist. Sorry for the guys, but if you lose a toggle it's your own fault.
Not saying that it's what happened to them, but I often see people in a swoop having the toggles pulled over the palm of their hands, with hands open, palm facing the earth. The "spread eagle" extra-cool swooping landing or whatever one could call this.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[kallend 2,146]

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The way I understand the design, that hood is the only attachment point keeping the toggle in place.

No, there is also a pin at the bottom of the toggle that locates in a pocket in the riser.

Yes I noticed, but I didn't think it provided enough static friction to actually keep the toggle in place.

It seems to me that in your case you were just lucky that the pin didn't get pulled out by the steering line? Because:

Quote

This pin locks the bottom of the loop of excess steering line in place. The pin points upwards, so even if the top of the toggle is knocked out of its "hood", the tension in the line does not pull the bottom pin out.

On Page 3, Picture 5 of this document it looks as if the direction of force of the pulling excess steering line would be downwards or at least sideways (relative to the riser), still allowing for the pin to become unstowed if the force is just great enough.
Maybe you could test that? Would be interesting to find out.
Thanks!

It's actually pulling sideways and increasing the friction of the pin in its "slot". The harder you pull on the steering line, the harder it is to dislodge the pin.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.