"Can look edgy in appearance but not sloppy."

[Tink1717 2]

Quote

That says a lot about the company right there:
They don't want creative people, nor people who think for themselves;
They are looking for mindless drones.

No place I'd ever consider working. A company that depends on pushing the envelope, new thinking and out of the box projects, won't be a company very long with that kind of ideology.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[quade 4]

Tink1717

Quote

That says a lot about the company right there:
They don't want creative people, nor people who think for themselves;
They are looking for mindless drones.

No place I'd ever consider working. A company that depends on pushing the envelope, new thinking and out of the box projects, won't be a company very long with that kind of ideology.

You have to be flexible and understand a dress code makes perfect sense for some jobs as opposed to others. The ridiculous situation is where a very large company makes a blanket policy that applies to everyone when in fact they should only concern themselves with it where it actually makes a difference.

That said, I don't care what position you hold or what company you hold it with, you know that saying about not judging a book by its cover? Yeah, people don't do that. They absolutely judge a book by its cover and whether you think it's right or wrong that's simply the fact.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airtwardo 7]

Andy9o8

Hey, don't leave us hangin'.

What...how did it go?

It was an interesting experience to say the least.

I was living in San Diego at the time...I'd also applied with the SDPD and was waiting for that process to start.

Things were moving fairly fast in L.A. - again because of the upcoming Olympics...To work for the L.A. Sheriffs Dept., you have to put 12 months in at the jail prior to hitting the street.

'Training' to get ya ready for dealing with the who & how it is real world. The whole process was impressive, more so considering I also went through it in San Diego...where it was far less intensive. I definitely respect L.A. County Sheriff's, they weed out the less than ideal pretty quick.

I was in my mid 20's, not long out of college where I was an athlete...I ate razor blades & pissed napalm so I was clearly the type they were looking for.

I was working in aerospace down in Sandyeggo & teaching static line on the weekends...living at the beach, making a good living. ~ Sitting in the human resources office in L.A. the day I was offered the job was one of those life changing moments.

Everything laid out regarding requirements, opportunity, and pay prompted reconsideration.

I'm looking out from about the 15th floor and can't see 2 blocks because of the smog...though I understand the why of doing a year as a turn key in the jail system...it surely wasn't part of the 'romantic vision' I had about the job...and PAY - I was making over double what those guys start out with annually!

I could wear what I wanted to work, shave if I felt like it, they were paying for any & all additional education at San Diego state I wanted to do...furthering my income abilities & I wouldn't have to forgo any safety meeting on the weekends!

Probably took a few years for the rubber tire marks I left in the parking lot getting out of there, to fade away!


* Doing the physical requirements qualification test was 'interesting'...probably 150 of us at some outdoor facility at 6am.
I'm looking around thinking easily 1/2 these people have no business being here...'they instructors' thought so too I guess, we were seperated into 3 groups - it was quite obvious what each criteria was regarding the group. I was with the racehorses in the 1st so I figured I had a good shot.

Going through a similar thing in San Diego I was more prepared and wasn't really 'pressured' as I'd kinda made up my mind career wise, but wanted to see it through - just in case.

I missed the course record there by about 4 seconds...hit the 6' wall at a full sprint and basically put one hand out and front looped it. THAT got some attention!

Ya gotta handcuff & drag a 150 pound dummy out a window, through a door and another 50 or 75 feet down the walk...there is a trick to doing it fast, 2nd time doing it was a breeze.

Ya gotta be constantly aware that everything is a 'test' during the process...twice had 'training officers' show up at home unexpectedly to do 'follow-up' ~ THAT can be disconcerting for a 20 something year old single guy, living with bikers & skydivers...that couch probably STILLS smells like bong water.

Midway through the weeding process at a psych interview downtown...clillin' during a break - I was privately put 'on the spot' by a sergeant who continually tried to talk religion with me, and was really pushing hard the teaching of L. Ron Hubbard.

I knew it was a set-up and being taped for further review so I handled it well.

Pay in San Diego was better than L.A. and with the 'mandatory' overtime considered part of the job, nearly equaled what I was making, but by then I was also doin' the demo thing nationwide...path was clear!

Doing demos at that level did require good grooming & goofy uniforms...but then again - the 'groupies' and those safety meeting were a tough perk to ignore.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Amazon 7]

airtwardo

***

Quote

Everyone has choices they can make thought out their life. But you have to willing to live by the choices you make. Other people should not have to live by the same choices. Believe it or not, a nose ring and ear plugs are not considered stylish in all segments of society.

That is very true to a degree and I don't deny it. And one certainly has to live with the choices one makes. But some things that become a factor in the work place, in many cases shouldn't.

I can understand if you're representing a brand that for example is supposed to represent a certain type of person. But outside of where the look conflicts with the business image, and where it is just down to closed minded owners - is where it bothers me.

I remember going through a 'dress for success' type seminar 30+ years ago my last semester in college.

A lot of guys were shocked to learn IBM wouldn't even interview you if you had facial hair...they were harumphing quite a bit - 'unfair' 'stereotyping' 'no freedom' etc.

Guy running the seminar laid it out - your choice to 'freely' work somewhere else...you choose your priorities then head down the paths still open.


I was interviewing with the L.A. County Sheriffs Dept. in the early 80's, they were doing a major manpower buildup prior to the Olympics.

Early on in the process there were about 30 of us 'candidates' who had passed the written, waiting for the prelim interview.

A Dep in uniform casually walked down the line giving us encouragement, pointers on conduct during the interview & advise on personal appearance. Things like no hats, no visible tats, no hair touching the collar, mustaches trimmed even with the corner of the mouth...

When he got to me...with ten days of facial hair showing - I got a stern WTF are YOU thinking!

I explained it was a temporary thing...I had recently received fairly serious facial burns from skydiving with pyrotechnics - shaving the blisters would cause worse scarring.

Guy walks away returning 3 minutes later with a new Bic razor & a little hotel bar of soap... "You have a choice to make!"

Remembering that college seminar & choices with paths...

I shaved in the restroom...


I overdressed for a job interview at IBM... I was expecting management or HR Barbies.... I got the geeks.... I think I skeered em and they thought I was after their jobs... too overqualified for it anyway

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

I think I skeered em...

Ummm...yeah, I can see that happening,

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ryoder 1,590]

quade

You have to be flexible and understand a dress code makes perfect sense for some jobs as opposed to others. The ridiculous situation is where a very large company makes a blanket policy that applies to everyone when in fact they should only concern themselves with it where it actually makes a difference.

Indeed;
I used to work at the same company as this guy;
You think he'd lower himself to IBM's dress code?
http://cisac.stanford.edu/people/whitfielddiffie/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

ryoder

***A lot of guys were shocked to learn IBM wouldn't even interview you if you had facial hair...

That says a lot about the company right there:
They don't want creative people, nor people who think for themselves;
They are looking for mindless drones.

Maybe in the 70's. By the time I got to the company, they made it pretty clear that if your job wasn't customer facing, you could wear pretty much whatever you wanted. I tested them on that a couple times, once showing up with knee-high Indian leather boots, blue jeans I'd slashed horizontally down the legs, a denim jacket with a grateful dead skull on it, a leather cowboy hat and Ben Franklin-style shades. Someone asked me if I was a manager because they didn't think one of the phone support grunts would show up at IBM wearing that. No one else said anything about it.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[turtlespeed 226]

jimjumper

I'd say this is very edgy!

I wonder if he snores at night.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[airtwardo 7]

FlyingRhenquest

******A lot of guys were shocked to learn IBM wouldn't even interview you if you had facial hair...

That says a lot about the company right there:
They don't want creative people, nor people who think for themselves;
They are looking for mindless drones.

Maybe in the 70's. By the time I got to the company, they made it pretty clear that if your job wasn't customer facing, you could wear pretty much whatever you wanted. I tested them on that a couple times, once showing up with knee-high Indian leather boots, blue jeans I'd slashed horizontally down the legs, a denim jacket with a grateful dead skull on it, a leather cowboy hat and Ben Franklin-style shades. Someone asked me if I was a manager because they didn't think one of the phone support grunts would show up at IBM wearing that. No one else said anything about it.


I had a good friend (fellow jumper) that was a 2nd shift contract CNC programmer at the aerospace firm I worked at...

Guy way my age making 20 times my weekly - he was THAT good! A manager there had a hard on for him because he was a high priced contract player that knew more than they did & wasn't real polite about showing it.

He'd be upstairs all alone at 11pm in engineering...blueprints spread all over the floor, sitting down there with them ...no shoes and always a diet sprite big gulp. worked his ass off and did state of the art programing.

Got fired one night for not wear shoes...

Couple years later he had his own job shop contracting business...said manager applies for a job ~ Ole Danny boy hired him...and two days later fired him, gave him two days to make sure he'd burned the bridges at the old place! Cause for dismissal? Wearing shoes!

No shit - I saw the paperwork!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Nataly 38]

jclalor

Perhaps "edgy" is just kind of a legal way to say younger.

^^THIS^^

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Andy9o8 2]

Nataly

***Perhaps "edgy" is just kind of a legal way to say younger.

^^THIS^^

I agree, too. It's executives in their 50s & 60s set in their ways re: style/grooming, because it was done that way most of their lives, so they consider newer styles to be grubby or sloppy. The IBM story up-thread, about them not even considering anyone w/facial hair 30 years ago, is a good example of that. Back then, the guys in management were born in the 19-teens to 1930s, and most of their lives all men in the US had been clean-shaven. Those of us who came of age in the 70's and had moustaches got a lot of shit about it from our dads.

I'm in my 50s, and still getting used to professional guys with 4 days growth of beard. What, your razor's broken? And what's with this combing your hair straight forward? you look like 12 year olds. Rotten kids.

[Nataly 38]

Andy9o8

******Perhaps "edgy" is just kind of a legal way to say younger.

^^THIS^^

I agree, too. It's executives in their 50s & 60s set in their ways re: style/grooming, because it was done that way most of their lives, so they consider newer styles to be grubby or sloppy. The IBM story up-thread, about them not even considering anyone w/facial hair 30 years ago, is a good example of that. Back then, the guys in management were born in the 19-teens to 1930s, and most of their lives all men in the US had been clean-shaven. Those of us who came of age in the 70's and had moustaches got a lot of shit about it from our dads.

I'm in my 50s, and still getting used to professional guys with 4 days growth of beard. What, your razor's broken? And what's with this combing your hair straight forward? you look like 12 year olds. Rotten kids.

I don't know the ins and outs of recruitment in the US, but they have age discrimination laws in the UK, that theoretically prevent you from deliberately screening based on age... This is meant to help young people get on the job market and "old" people (ie, over 30 ) *stay* on the job market...

In reality, people try to appeal to different age groups by using euphamisms ("requires 10 years of experience" when the job could be done by a 5-year-old, or "a dynamic company keen on fresh ideas," meaning the CEO is still in diapers and so is everyone else, et cetera, et cetera). The reality is that just like you can totally find an excuse not to hire a woman, an ethnic minority, someone who wears a hijab/turban, you can also find ways not to hire on the basis of age.

By using descriptions like "edgy," for example.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Andy9o8 2]

Which brings to mind the question: what kind of job (company) was being advertised for? Context would help.

[quade 4]

Nataly

I don't know the ins and outs of recruitment in the US, but they have age discrimination laws in the UK, that theoretically prevent you from deliberately screening based on age...

Bwahahahah . . . oh that's a good one. Seriously.

HR doesn't even need to call you in for an interview to discriminate today. With social media it's all too easy to eliminate any candidate you want for whatever petty reason you want and there is absolutely no legal recourse.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 2]

quade

***I don't know the ins and outs of recruitment in the US, but they have age discrimination laws in the UK, that theoretically prevent you from deliberately screening based on age...

Bwahahahah . . . oh that's a good one. Seriously.

HR doesn't even need to call you in for an interview to discriminate today. With social media it's all too easy to eliminate any candidate you want for whatever petty reason you want and there is absolutely no legal recourse.

Well, that's really always been the case. Resumes and applications list education or graduation years. So that's basically age right there. And the minority of people who omit dates from education are presumed to be at least well into middle age anyway.

[peek 21]

Andy9o8

Which brings to mind the question: what kind of job (company) was being advertised for? Context would help.

Skydiving Instructor.
(I was trying to avoid calling attention to that.)

[airtwardo 7]

peek

***Which brings to mind the question: what kind of job (company) was being advertised for? Context would help.

Skydiving Instructor.
(I was trying to avoid calling attention to that.)

NOT that's there's anything WRONG with that!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 4]

Andy9o8

******I don't know the ins and outs of recruitment in the US, but they have age discrimination laws in the UK, that theoretically prevent you from deliberately screening based on age...

Bwahahahah . . . oh that's a good one. Seriously.

HR doesn't even need to call you in for an interview to discriminate today. With social media it's all too easy to eliminate any candidate you want for whatever petty reason you want and there is absolutely no legal recourse.

Well, that's really always been the case. Resumes and applications list education or graduation years. So that's basically age right there. And the minority of people who omit dates from education are presumed to be at least well into middle age anyway.

Well, yes, that's fairly obvious, but with social media they can also quickly eliminate gay, black, atheist, skydiver, vegan. A lot of things they never would have even the faintest clue about until after sitting down with you in an interview.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Andy9o8

I'm in my 50s, and still getting used to professional guys with 4 days growth of beard. What, your razor's broken? And what's with this combing your hair straight forward? you look like 12 year olds. Rotten kids.

What, you don't like the Justin Bieber boy-band look?

Some of us don't have hair at all. I tell people I'm 43 and they're stunned.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[Nataly 38]

quade

***I don't know the ins and outs of recruitment in the US, but they have age discrimination laws in the UK, that theoretically prevent you from deliberately screening based on age...

Bwahahahah . . . oh that's a good one. Seriously.

HR doesn't even need to call you in for an interview to discriminate today. With social media it's all too easy to eliminate any candidate you want for whatever petty reason you want and there is absolutely no legal recourse.

It's like that in the UK as well. But the anti-discrimination laws exist even though there is practically no way of proving that discrimination is blatantly going on...

Back to the OP... If it's for a skydiving instructor position that changes everything... Telling applicants they should not look too much like a bum is perfectly valid I would interpret that to mean "tie-die t-shirts are ok, but not if you haven't washed them in 20 years!!!" Put yourself in the client's shoes... You expect that skydivers may be a bit mad (edgy), but if your instructor rocks up looking sloppy, it signals to the newbie that the instructor might be equally "sloppy" on gear checks, safety, et cetera.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[DrDom 0]

When I applied for residency I had piercings in my eyebrow and lip. Most places were appalled. A doctor with piercings? crazy. One place said I looked "edgy" and they liked it. I went to residency there and my face is still up on the wall of that Brooklyn hospital... piercings and all. Would probably have had them the whole time if I didn't need to have them out for surgery (on me, not me performing). I could not be bothered with putting them in, or getting any more tattoos.

I used to even coordinate my ties with my jewelry.

My boss at the time said it was good to have someone who did not fit the "doctor" picture. Made us look more hip and diverse as a population. I probably could have gone too far though...

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[airtwardo 7]

DrDom

When I applied for residency I had piercings in my eyebrow and lip. Most places were appalled. A doctor with piercings? crazy. One place said I looked "edgy" and they liked it. I went to residency there and my face is still up on the wall of that Brooklyn hospital... piercings and all. Would probably have had them the whole time if I didn't need to have them out for surgery (on me, not me performing). I could not be bothered with putting them in, or getting any more tattoos.

I used to even coordinate my ties with my jewelry.

My boss at the time said it was good to have someone who did not fit the "doctor" picture. Made us look more hip and diverse as a population. I probably could have gone too far though...

My GP has full sleeves - some REALLY nice work. I didn't know that until I saw him at the gym once. I mentioned art like that was too nice to 'hide'. ~ He said thanks but nobody over 40 seems to think so... he covers in the office so as not to offend.

Told him I'm a bit over 40 and us old farts know better than most - ain't the paint that wins the race, it's what's UNDER the hood!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DrDom 0]

airtwardo

***When I applied for residency I had piercings in my eyebrow and lip. Most places were appalled. A doctor with piercings? crazy. One place said I looked "edgy" and they liked it. I went to residency there and my face is still up on the wall of that Brooklyn hospital... piercings and all. Would probably have had them the whole time if I didn't need to have them out for surgery (on me, not me performing). I could not be bothered with putting them in, or getting any more tattoos.

I used to even coordinate my ties with my jewelry.

My boss at the time said it was good to have someone who did not fit the "doctor" picture. Made us look more hip and diverse as a population. I probably could have gone too far though...

My GP has full sleeves - some REALLY nice work. I didn't know that until I saw him at the gym once. I mentioned art like that was too nice to 'hide'. ~ He said thanks but nobody over 40 seems to think so... he covers in the office so as not to offend.

Told him I'm a bit over 40 and us old farts know better than most - ain't the paint that wins the race, it's what's UNDER the hood!

In our field it is VERY hard to be "different" because everyone wants a Marcus Welby kind of doc.

You are not the contents of your wallet.