Gloves

[jlmiracle 7]

Latex liners have made a world of difference on many jumps, before I had what I consider good stuff, plus constantly busted through them, but they work well in a pinch.

Many jumper I know use latex gloves under gloves because they completely block the wind. If you are using latex gloves to keep warm, I don't think moisture isn't a problem because they are not on that long and its cold outside and it your hands are getting sweaty then you probably don't need them.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[craichead 0]

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Latex liners have made a world of difference on many jumps, before I had what I consider good stuff, plus constantly busted through them, but they work well in a pinch.

Many jumper I know use latex gloves under gloves because they completely block the wind. If you are using latex gloves to keep warm, I don't think moisture isn't a problem because they are not on that long and its cold outside and it your hands are getting sweaty then you probably don't need them.

Well, latex gloves can be on for a long time depending on how long it takes you to get to altitude...30 minutes in an unheated C-182 is a long time to be wearing latex gloves.

Your body and hands are constantly releasing moisture. Once you put on a latex glove, the latex will trap that moisture while the heat is lost. Then that moisture will freeze (or get really cold) in cold air, thus leading to colder hands. Yeah, I know you're supposed to wear the latex gloves under your normal year-round gloves, but thin, regular gloves don't have insulation, so they do nothing for heat retention.

A good pair of lightweight, insulated, wind-stopper type gloves will cost less over years of use than buying a box of latex gloves every year. As Andy said, go to any mountain/outdoor store (trendy or not). Just because some places are trendy doesn't mean they're expensive...like, say, trendy $40 Neumann winter skydiving gloves.

I have these gloves for skydiving:

Outdoor Research Gripper Windstopper® Gloves

EMS WindStopper Gloves

_Pm

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"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[kelpdiver 2]

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Latex liners do not work in cold weather. Moisture collecting under the latex gets cold, quickly. This is especially important if you plan on wearing the gloves for a slow plane ride.

But tight fitting latex gloves should be trapping the heat coming from the fingers, warming the moisture like any wetsuit would do. Icky feeling, but shouldn't be freezing.

Unless your body is so cold that it has already abandoned the limbs to keep the core warm. Remember the adage- if your hands are cold, put on a hat. And probably a nice sweater too. In the more moderately cold temps, the rest of the clothing is likely more important than having gloves or not.

I do most of my diving in California without gloves. If the water temp drops below 51, I wear them.

[craichead 0]

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But tight fitting latex gloves should be trapping the heat coming from the fingers, warming the moisture like any wetsuit would do. Icky feeling, but shouldn't be freezing.

Wetsuit = neoprene
Neoprene = insulating

A thin layer of latex is not neoprene. It does not trap heat. All it traps is moisture. The only way that latex is going to retain heat is if you have some insulating material around it. So, you might as well buy a good pair of insulated gloves that will block out the wind.

A funny thought I just had...would you go scuba diving in a latex body suit? Or skydiving in cold weather with just a latex body suit worn under your jumpsuit? I know some people who would, but I'm just not into that kind of kinky stuff. Clicky. Oh wait, even better!

_Pm

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"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[philly51 0]

I jump all year, in NJ, and Ifound that Footjoy winter golf gloves work fine. If it's really cold, ( minus F on the ground) I add a pair of liners( silk or thinsulate) under them, and I haven't had any problems down to -30f at altitude. They cost $19.00 a pair at Dick's Sporting Goods. Liners are about $2-3 at any hardware store.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, Shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!"

[kelpdiver 2]

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A thin layer of latex is not neoprene. It does not trap heat. All it traps is moisture. The only way that latex is going to retain heat is if you have some insulating material around it. So, you might as well buy a good pair of insulated gloves that will block out the wind.

Latex doesn't retain heat, but moisture does. In the extreme example, I found myself stuck on the rim of Yosemite Valley in winter for the night. 20F, no fire, no hat even. So I put a plastic bag over my head with a hole to breathe. It certainly was a big improvement over nothing.

Neoprene wetsuits do insulate, but a big portion of the warmth is in minimizing water exchange so the trapped water can retain heat. A shell drysuit with no insulation will still make it possible to dive in 55F water, but certainly you'd be happier wearing the long underwear with it.

[Ron 10]

#1 move to FL.

I wear Neumans on every jump but tandems.

If it gets cold in FL...I don't tend to jump.

If I have to jump, I put a latex surgical glove on under my Neumans.

Andyman has a point about it not beinga good idea to wear a latex glove that will trap the moisture...However, it does work. The trick is not to wear them the whole ride up. Simply put them on at the same time you normaly start getting ready. It blocks the wind quite well, and will keep your hands warm.

Before people start saying I don't know cold... lived in IL, Tn...ect and jumped in the snow many times...

I took my own advice and then moved to FL...

Try it, you will like it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AndyMan 7]

I have tried it. I struggled with latex liners for a full winter season because that was the advice everyone was giving. Cold fingers suck, especially when you're so cold it's tough to pick up your toggles, never mind hold onto them.

I've since discovered that a: prevailing opinion is often wrong, and b: in this case there are easy alternatives available that work much better. Skydiving is not the first sport to have a problem of very high wind speeds in cold weather.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[bch7773 0]

Well, latex gloves have worked for me. And I jump in kansas, which can get fairly cold. during the winter, we jump in below 32F on the ground, and 20F at altitude.
I wear the latex gloves under scuba diving gloves, and i put them all on before boarding. so i wear them 20 minutes and have no problem with cold hands, although i can feel a little moisture in there.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[AndyMan 7]

I think in your case its the neoprene scuba gloves that's working to keep you warm.

In your case, you might do better to put the latex gloves OVER the neoprene.

That said, if you're going to go out and spend the money on scuba gloves - which I imagine can't be cheap, you might as well get a pair that are windproof, too...?

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Ron 10]

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I have tried it. I struggled with latex liners for a full winter season because that was the advice everyone was giving. Cold fingers suck, especially when you're so cold it's tough to pick up your toggles, never mind hold onto them.

I've since discovered that a: prevailing opinion is often wrong, and b: in this case there are easy alternatives available that work much better. Skydiving is not the first sport to have a problem of very high wind speeds in cold weather.

I have discovered:
A: Just cause one person does not agree does not mean it is wrong. Often just because an accepted practice didn't work for that ONE person does not mean its a bad practice. Things become prevailing opinions often because they work for MOST people.

B: The latex covers are simple, easy to use, cheap, and work.

The BEST answer is still move to FL.

Barring that they should try the cheap, easy to use, and works for most people, latex liners before they spend money on yet another set of gloves that may or may not work for them....Why reinvent the wheel?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mr2mk1g 10]

Someone should invite Kallend here to give a brief lecture on why wind chill is far more important to us than the presence of moisture.

Latex present’s wind-chill (mostly).

Breathable gloves which promote wicking do not.

Think how a wet suit works - you stay warm so long as the water in contact with you stays where it is.

[craichead 0]

So, do you have a pair of winter gloves, you know, for everyday use? Or do you just wear a pair of latex surgical gloves when windchill temperatures drop well below freezing?

I think some people are missing a key point here--insulation. Wetsuits are made out of neoprene, which is a material that INSULATES, which plays a key role in keeping that trapped moisture warm.

If wearing latex gloves under normal gloves works for ya, go for it. It doesn't work for me (and others), and I hate the feeling of moisture (cold or warm) trapped next to my skin. So, I wear a good pair of insulated (retains heat), "windstopper" (blocks wind, prevents windchill), breathable (wicks away moisture), grippy (won't slip off the floater bar and can pull hackey) gloves. Linked to them in my post above.

I figure if you can afford to skydive, you can afford a decent pair of ~$25 gloves if the latex thing doesn't work for you. If I recall correctly, the original poster said that rubber gloves over shitty gloves weren't working. I kinda doubt that moving the rubber gloves to the inner layer would work for him, either.

_Pm

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"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[mr2mk1g 10]

Both are important. But water on your skin is irrelavent (to temperateure at least) if you have an impermiable barrier between it and the wind.

I had some wonderful windstopper winter gloves with rubberised grip till some hobo broke into my car and stole them. Can you believe that was the only thing they nicked!!

I'm shopping again right not, but latex or plastic undergloves are better than nothing. Even if they're not the best solution, they certainly add to the protection you have as opposed to worsen the situation as some appear to be suggesting.

[Ron 10]

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I think some people are missing a key point here--insulation. Wetsuits are made out of neoprene, which is a material that INSULATES, which plays a key role in keeping that trapped moisture warm.

Wetsuits work by trapping water near the body and not letting it get away. The body heats that water, and since it stays put it keeps you warm. Water is a conductor of heat at something like 20 times better than air. You would be cold if you allowed the water next to your body to be replaced by cold water.

Drysuits work better by being a better barrier to the water. (NAUI Master rated)

A good pair of gloves with a pair of latex gloves under them provide both Insulation and protects against windchill.

This set up cannot be used for a long time due to not wicking away moisture as you and others have said. Over time that moisture will start to get cold. So the trick is to not wear them all day.

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figure if you can afford to skydive, you can afford a decent pair of ~$25 gloves if the latex thing doesn't work for you. If I recall correctly, the original poster said that rubber gloves over shitty gloves weren't working. I kinda doubt that moving the rubber gloves to the inner layer would work for him, either.

Maybe not, but the cost to try it is next to nothing.

I also am worried that some folks will try things that are not safe....I remember one time a guy showed up at the DZ with a pair of ski MITTENS. He was unable to feel the pilot chute and ended up pulling his reserve. Thank God this was before pillow reserve handles were the rage. This guy had a problem pulling the reserve and was only able to do it by hooking his mitten through the "D" ring.

I am warry anytime a jumper comes out with a "new" anything. In the case above it only ended with a reserve ride.

Another time a guy showed up with a pair of gloves that had a "hook" to keep them together. When we saw this we made him do some practice pulls. Sure enough the little plastic hook caught on his leg strap on one of the pulls. He was unable to get it to release. After we cut the hook off they were fine.

No matter what you do decide to do, check with an Instructor you trust.

New things often hide new problems.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,584]

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I remember one time a guy showed up at the DZ with a pair of ski MITTENS. He was unable to feel the pilot chute and ended up pulling his reserve

It was suspected that a fatality in 1981 or so was because the jumper was wearing ski gloves thick enough that he could not feel his throwout or pullout (I don't remember which) handle. This was in Connecticut, where winters involve snow and the like.

DZs got careful after that. Jumpers should be even more careful.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[craichead 0]

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Wetsuits work by trapping water near the body and not letting it get away. The body heats that water, and since it stays put it keeps you warm. Water is a conductor of heat at something like 20 times better than air. You would be cold if you allowed the water next to your body to be replaced by cold water.

Yes, I understand this concept. But aren't wetsuits made of neoprene? And doesn't neoprene have insulating properties, which helps retain the heat that your body is generating to warm the water next to your skin? I doubt that you're going to get the same results scuba diving with a thin layer of surgical glove latex covering your body instead of a neoprene wetsuit.

Latex isn't insulating. It may keep the moisture in and close to your skin, but a thin layer of leather (or nylon) over the thin layer of latex isn't that much more insulating, either. I can see how latex gloves under neoprene gloves would work, but if you're going to buy neoprene gloves, you might as well buy insulated (low bulk) windstopper gloves.

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I also am worried that some folks will try things that are not safe....I remember one time a guy showed up at the DZ with a pair of ski MITTENS. He was unable to feel the pilot chute and ended up pulling his reserve. Thank God this was before pillow reserve handles were the rage. This guy had a problem pulling the reserve and was only able to do it by hooking his mitten through the "D" ring.

I am warry anytime a jumper comes out with a "new" anything. In the case above it only ended with a reserve ride.

A valid concern, as well. Part of my AFF training was in late fall, and my instructor gave me a pair of thin but insulated gloves after I complained that on my last (gloveless) skydive, I couldn't feel my hands or my toggles. When he gave me the gloves, I asked him, "What if I can't feel/find the handle with gloves on?" He said he would help me find it if I couldn't, and then had me do lots of practice touches on the ground, in the plane, in the air... I had no problem feeling the handle and pulling.

If that sort of common sense doesn't occur to you (tactile ability of gloves for skydiving), that's probably another reason why somebody shouldn't be in this sport. As far as hooks are concerned...well, the EMS gloves that Andy and I wear have a tiny fastex clip arrangement, and they haven't snagged on anything (under and over the cuff of our jumpsuits). The Outdoor Research gloves have very small (and very weak) plastic triangles with a small gap in them to link them together. In either case, I'd be more than willing to cut them off.

_Pm

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"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[bch7773 0]

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I think in your case its the neoprene scuba gloves that's working to keep you warm.

nope its definitely not the scuba gloves... they work fairly well, but not when it gets really cold... thats when i add the latex gloves underneath. then they are warmer.

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In your case, you might do better to put the latex gloves OVER the neoprene.

That said, if you're going to go out and spend the money on scuba gloves - which I imagine can't be cheap, you might as well get a pair that are windproof, too...?

I bought them years ago specifically for scuba diving. And yes i could go out and buy a fairly nice windproof set of gloves for around $30 bucks... but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

besides the latex gloves are just a liner... if i went out and bought a better set of gloves, i would probably put latex gloves on before those too.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yes, I understand this concept. But aren't wetsuits made of neoprene? And doesn't neoprene have insulating properties, which helps retain the heat that your body is generating to warm the water next to your skin? I doubt that you're going to get the same results scuba diving with a thin layer of surgical glove latex covering your body instead of a neoprene wetsuit.

That's essentially what a tri-lam drysuit is. And as I said, without any other form of insulation it does cover a lot of the need. I've spent 45+ minutes in water in the lower 50s that way.

But Ron, forget about the moving to Florida. Too damned many hurricanes.

[craichead 0]

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That's essentially what a tri-lam drysuit is. And as I said, without any other form of insulation it does cover a lot of the need. I've spent 45+ minutes in water in the lower 50s that way.

Dude, if you want to try wearing just a pair of latex surgical gloves to protect your hands and a latex bodysuit on skydives with below-freezing temperatures at altitude, be my guest.

_Pm

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"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[exwhuffo 0]

winter hunting gloves neoprene. any walmart around $10-15. great feel and grip.

[kelpdiver 2]

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That's essentially what a tri-lam drysuit is. And as I said, without any other form of insulation it does cover a lot of the need. I've spent 45+ minutes in water in the lower 50s that way.

Dude, if you want to try wearing just a pair of latex surgical gloves to protect your hands and a latex bodysuit on skydives with below-freezing temperatures at altitude, be my guest.

You asked what it's like to scuba in a latex suit. I answered. Those of you insisting these gloves can have no value in the sky are wrong. People here clearly see value, and I know it does in the water equilivent.

You seem to have way too much at stake in this conversation. Why?

Going back, I pointed out that the body suit choice is much more important than the glove choice for most people.

[craichead 0]

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You asked what it's like to scuba in a latex suit.

No, actually I didn't.

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Those of you insisting these gloves can have no value in the sky are wrong. People here clearly see value, and I know it does in the water equilivent.

Well, I wasn't one of those people. I just said it doesn't work for me. I also said that if it works for you, then go for it. Have you tried wearing latex gloves under normal gloves while skydiving in below-freezing temperatures?

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You seem to have way too much at stake in this conversation. Why?

I do? If I do, then you seem to, as well. Can't take a fun, sarcastic joke (my last post)?

_Pm

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"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[kelpdiver 2]

KNEEL BEFORE ME!!!

----
nah, I don't care that much either. It's all academic here in California. Cold was last month when it got down to 50 on the ground.

I found a new interesting way to get grounded by hand issues - had a dog run face first into my right thumb this evening. I'm hoping it's just a day or two of aching, but right now there's no way I'd trust that hand to brake the motorcycle, or to pull out the PC (or do cutaway procedure).

[Ron 10]

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Yes, I understand this concept. But aren't wetsuits made of neoprene? And doesn't neoprene have insulating properties, which helps retain the heat that your body is generating to warm the water next to your skin? I doubt that you're going to get the same results scuba diving with a thin layer of surgical glove latex covering your body instead of a neoprene wetsuit.

Latex is not insulating in the way you think. What happens is the neoprene traps water. Your body heats this water,and by not allowing a rapid exchange of water around your body you stay warm...Think about a cars radiator in reverse. A cars radiator circulates water to transfer heat from the block to a radiator where it is dispelled into the air. A wetsuit traps this warm water and does not let it transfer the heat to the surrounding water..Thereby keeping you warm.

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Latex isn't insulating. It may keep the moisture in and close to your skin, but a thin layer of leather (or nylon) over the thin layer of latex isn't that much more insulating, either. I can see how latex gloves under neoprene gloves would work, but if you're going to buy neoprene gloves, you might as well buy insulated (low bulk) windstopper gloves.

100% correct. You would also need an insulator (Such as Nueman winter gloves) for it to be warm. And both you and Andy have both been corrcect that this will not work for an extended period of time, and in fact could be worse in the long run. One thing you don't have SCUBA diving is wind chill. And wind chill is a very quick way to drop the temperature of an object. The Latex will block the wind.

Like I said before it is not that big of a deal. It works well enough for some, not well enough for others. Do what works for you.

I have a normal recomendation that I give to people when they ask about gear.

"Look around your DZ and see what others are doing"

There is no reason for you to reinvent the wheel. If the folks at your DZ are wearing these gloves Andy and CH are talking about...And they have been doing it a while it might be safe.

I would ask all of those that have new gloves they want to tryout, or even the same gloves that everyone else is wearing....Talk to an Instructor about them, do practice pulls with them.

I wear gloves on almost every jump, and have since around 30 jumps.....I still will not wear gloves on Tandems since I only have around 100 Tandem jumps...And Tandems have a lot of handles in crazy places.

Look around, make a choice, talk to an instructor you trust.

But really please cut off any hooks or latches...They are not needed and can just cause a problem.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334