GLIDEANGLE 1 #1 February 3, 2011 I reviewed the 2010 USPA Fatality Summary today. I was not surprised that Canopy Flight related deaths were 70% of all fatalities. Nor was it a surprise that canopy collisions and intentional hook turns accounted for most of the Canopy Flight Related deaths. What did surprise me was that “hard landing in strong/gusty winds” claimed as many lives as hook turns and almost as many as canopy collisions. 2010 USPA Fatalites Total (all causes) 21 -----Canopy Flight Related 15 ----------Canopy collision 5 ----------Intentional hook turn 4 ----------Hard Landing in Strong/Gusty winds 4 ----------CReW entanglement 1 ----------Dropped toggle on high W/L canopy 1 -----Non-Canopy Flight Related 6 I am delighted that collisions and intentional hook turns are getting attention and discussion here and at the USPA. However, I haven’t heard much about the “strong/gusty winds” issue. I don’t have enough information (experienced or novice, current or not, what kind of wings/wing loading, etc) to make any sort of reasonable suggestions for corrective action. At the very least I think it deserves discussion.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muffie 0 #2 February 4, 2011 Here's a link to one of the incidents: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3942395#3942395 As I recall, jumper at a boogie that was used to high winds at his DZ in Puerto Rico decided to jump in high wind conditions at the boogie. One of his friends from Puerto Rico commented that there was a definite difference between the winds at the two dzs even though the MPH were approximately the same. Here's another one: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3780982#3780982 Per fatality database: "Jumper suffered a hard landing while jumping in high winds. The landing caused a broken pelvis but the jumper died at the hospital for surgery to repair the injury." Another one from March 28, 2010: Per fatality database: "Jumper was on the 5th load of the day. Winds were reported to be between 20-25 MPH at 3000 feet. Jumper was performing a wingsuit dive which went as planned and opened without malfunction over the designated spot at approximately 4000 feet AGL. Jumper was seen steering canopy upwind and continued to fly that heading. Jumper was blown off the airport into a wooded area recently cleared for development. Jumper's canopy was seen to apparently collapse as the canopy was still flying backwards due to the wind conditions. Jumper suffered blunt force trama to the neck and head upon impact and was found deceased at the scene. It is suspected that she hit her head on remnants of recently removed tree stumps. Jumper had been current and performed approximately 30 skydives within the last 30 days." Edited to add 2nd and 3rd incidents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #3 February 4, 2011 Try this site, it will give you some more information. http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/ SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #4 February 4, 2011 Really? That web site seems to have stopped capturing data about 24 months ago. I see NOTHING for 2010.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #5 February 4, 2011 corrective action is to NOT jump in gusty/strong winds. And that is totally subjective. Experienced skydivers make decisions every day. Sometimes the winds are borderline and some people choose to stay on the ground, some do not. The problem is that no one knows if or when a gust might get them, or even if they will be able to fly through it, but not too many think they are going to 'die', - I think most just think they risk some injury. And I am sure that the skill level of the individual does actually have a lot to with the outcome. better pilots with better equipment definitely have an advantage - the risk may be smaller, but it is still there. Know your limits - learn something new every day, practice, and do not assume that you are invincible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #6 February 4, 2011 I've tried for years to get people to understand the risks associated with high and/or gusty winds, but it's hard to get people to listen when the most experienced jumpers on the DZ gear up anyway. Some argue that higher loaded canopies can handle more wind, and as far as actual mph that's true. However the same turbulence that will collapse a canopy suspended at 1:1 will collapse a canopy at 2:1, often with more devastating results. But as with everything else in skydiving, it's a top-down issue. No one but students wore hard helmets until the big boys and girls decided the top FS teams looked cool in fullface versions. No one jumped an AAD until Tom Piras' friends buried him and placed their orders for one. When I owned a DZ, I shut the plane down when winds got too high or too gusty. I didn't wait for a TI to tell me they were hesitant or a pilot to say they were uncomfortable. I saved them the trouble. Everyone talks about solving the canopy fatality problem yet your post is the first I've seen pointing out that more than 25% of all 2010 canopy fatalities were wind related. The only way to not die from a wind/gust problem is to stay on the ground when conditions aren't right. What's most interesting, and disappointing, is that the very people who know best and are most trusted - DZO's, instructors, and high-time jumpers - are the ones setting the example of what is acceptable. After all, your Instructor wouldn't jump if it was too windy, would he? And certainly if the winds are sketchy the DZO would never put his staff in danger, would he? Well guess what? They do. And last year 4 people died when they did. Not much "money where the mouth is" left in this sport. Maybe there's too much money in the sport to fit it all in there.BTW, I load a Velo 2:1 and stay on the ground when the winds peak north of 20mph and even lower if the gusts get weird. I've never been injured because of winds, but I sure have laughed as I sip my beer watching Madskillz Marty sitting southbound in the landing area with a northbound femur.Want to stop the canopy fatalities? Start with refusing to jump when you know the winds are marginal - and be vocal about it. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #7 February 4, 2011 QuoteAnd certainly if the winds are sketchy the DZO would never put his staff in danger, would he? One of the things I appreciate about the DZ I jump regularly is that they have an anemometer and established thresholds and measurement techniques for wind holds (one threshold for student/rental gear, and a higher one for all jumpers). Hearing the student/rental hold is usually a good indication for me to sit my ass down, but it's also good to have an objective number that is non-negotiable and well-enforced. QuoteWant to stop the canopy fatalities? Start with refusing to jump when you know the winds are marginal - and be vocal about it. This. I'm usually pretty conservative about jumping in wonky winds, and I'll happily tell people about it (particularly newer jumpers). I like to take 'em out to the landing area to watch the folks that *are* still jumping so we can see exactly how the wind conditions are affecting canopies (and often the quality of landings). Usually you won't see an injury, but you'll often see a less-than-graceful landing or someone being drug by a canopy or canopies doing all kinds of interesting things in the air. I've been out 3 1/2 months now from a turbulence-related injury. I was fortunate - my injury (high ankle sprain in my left ankle, torn MCL in my right knee) didn't require surgery and was treatable with time and physical therapy, but I'm still kicking myself for it. As I've told everyone who's asked about it "The winds were fine when I went up; if I'd seen evidence of the kind of turbulence that was present when I landed, I probably wouldn't have gone up." There were several ugly landings on my load; as I was riding the golf cart back to the hangar, we saw a dust devil go through. My incident shows that you can't always predict when weird winds are going to come through before you get on the plane, but often there are plenty of clues (wind socks with hard-ons in multiple directions, dust devils, a bunch of ugly landings, etc). I was at the ER getting x-rayed for most of the rest of the afternoon so I don't know if I "inspired" anyone to stop jumping, but maybe a couple sat out."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ILUVCHUTERS 1 #8 February 4, 2011 I'm a big 'ol wind baby and not ashamed of it. I frequently sit loads out when others of the same or lower experience are going up, and I respect their choice to jump, but I also respect my own not to. Until late last season I was loading a fairly large (195) canopy really lightly (.7ish) and now I'm loading a 168 at about .9 or so, and it's really easy for me to get blown backwards. That is not good times, nor is getting tossed around like a rag doll after landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #9 February 5, 2011 Quote“hard landing in strong/gusty winds” I don't see a problem here. If its strong and gusty don't jump. Where that line is I know for me. Its up to everyone to keep a eye out for each other. I have been at the loading area on more then one occasion where I told jumpers its too windy and they should chill for a bit. The hardest part in that is not coming off like a dick.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #10 February 5, 2011 Quote Quote “hard landing in strong/gusty winds” I don't see a problem here. If its strong and gusty don't jump. Where that line is I know for me. Its up to everyone to keep a eye out for each other. I have been at the loading area on more then one occasion where I told jumpers its too windy and they should chill for a bit. The hardest part in that is not coming off like a dick. The way you are doing is about the best way I can think of, by example. I try to tell the newer jumper to look for the old gray beards on the DZ. When sit down I would be good to follow suit. They didn’t last 30 years in the sport doing dumb things. Jumping in strong or more importantly gusty wind is dumb. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #11 February 5, 2011 QuoteReally? That web site seems to have stopped capturing data about 24 months ago. I see NOTHING for 2010. Well there is only so much information you can glean from 2010. I though you could increase your data base by using past years. It has a pretty good search function. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firemedic 7 #12 February 5, 2011 What's most interesting, and disappointing, is that the very people who know best and are most trusted - DZO's, instructors, and high-time jumpers - are the ones setting the example of what is acceptable. After all, your Instructor wouldn't jump if it was too windy, would he? And certainly if the winds are sketchy the DZO would never put his staff in danger, would he? Not much "money where the mouth is" left in this sport. Maybe there's too much money in the sport to fit it all in there.When I started doing tandems I worked at an upper mid west DZ. The winds in the spring were horrendous. 20+ most of the time and often 30+ and gusty. I sat on the ground (along with most of the fun jumpers) but the experienced TIs were all jumping. I was catching tandems and I saw some scary shit the wind was doing to the canopies. I only regretted not staying on the ground once. I let the DZO cajole me into jumping in those winds. I got on the ground and told him I'm done. Unfortunately money mattered to him more than his staff or his customers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #13 February 5, 2011 This answer is for the thread.... A turtle lives long, but I don't want to live like a turtle. I usually willing to jump when there are people willing to jump and the rest is sitting because they think that the wind is too high, the wind is too gusty or the sky is not blue enough.... The landing area is huge where I'm jumping the jump canopies with WL 1.7-2.3. I have not ever flown backward and I can find clean air for landing. Sure its easier to say to sit, than teach how to jump with higher winds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #14 February 5, 2011 Quote This answer is for the thread.... A turtle lives long, but I don't want to live like a turtle. I usually willing to jump when there are people willing to jump and the rest is sitting because they think that the wind is too high, the wind is too gusty or the sky is not blue enough.... The landing area is huge where I'm jumping the jump canopies with WL 1.7-2.3. I have not ever flown backward and I can find clean air for landing. Sure its easier to say to sit, than teach how to jump with higher winds. Might want to keep this handy.http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Form_Accident_Report_2007_05.pdfChuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #15 February 5, 2011 Quote Might want to keep this handy.http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Form_Accident_Report_2007_05.pdf Why would I need an USPA form in Finland? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 7 #16 February 5, 2011 Maybe this is why people think Americans are arrogant. Many just assume you are a member of the USPA. We often tell people to fill out their profile and then don't bother to click on it.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #17 February 5, 2011 Quote Quote Might want to keep this handy.http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Form_Accident_Report_2007_05.pdf Why would I need an USPA form in Finland? I was just sending an accident report form and USPA's was the first one I found online. Pretty sure the Finland club will accept it in a pinch, though.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #18 February 5, 2011 Quote Maybe this is why people think Americans are arrogant. Many just assume you are a member of the USPA. We often tell people to fill out their profile and then don't bother to click on it. I did not assume he was a USPA member (see reply http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=4053527;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;) BTW, there's a big difference between arrogance and competence. A competent person can tell the difference.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #19 February 5, 2011 Quote Quote Maybe this is why people think Americans are arrogant. Many just assume you are a member of the USPA. We often tell people to fill out their profile and then don't bother to click on it. I did not assume he was a USPA member (see reply http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=4053527;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;) BTW, there's a big difference between arrogance and competence. A competent person can tell the difference. ...and an arrogant one doesn't care. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #20 February 5, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Maybe this is why people think Americans are arrogant. Many just assume you are a member of the USPA. We often tell people to fill out their profile and then don't bother to click on it. I did not assume he was a USPA member (see reply http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=4053527;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;) BTW, there's a big difference between arrogance and competence. A competent person can tell the difference. ...and an arrogant one doesn't care. ok, now dats some funny sh*t.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #21 February 6, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Might want to keep this handy.http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Form_Accident_Report_2007_05.pdf Why would I need an USPA form in Finland? I was just sending an accident report form and USPA's was the first one I found online. Pretty sure the Finland club will accept it in a pinch, though. Why do you assume there would not exist any incident reporting form here? FYI: We also got running cold and hot water, electricity and even Internet here. I've considered a dead man walking since I registered here. Competence for me means know and embrace your limits. There could be thing that I can not do or I don't dare to do, but I would not say can't be done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #22 February 6, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Might want to keep this handy.http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Form_Accident_Report_2007_05.pdf Why would I need an USPA form in Finland? I was just sending an accident report form and USPA's was the first one I found online. Pretty sure the Finland club will accept it in a pinch, though. Why do you assume there would not exist any incident reporting form here? You still don't get it and you're getting boring. Never mind.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craigbey 0 #23 February 6, 2011 Quotehow to jump with higher winds I respect that you do try to find clean air and that you have your own personal limts, but... What would you teach to others regarding jumping in high winds? Let's say someone finds themselves under canopy and the winds have picked up. What now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #24 February 6, 2011 QuoteI usually willing to jump when there are people willing to jump This tells me that you let others make your decisions for you. Is that correct? QuoteThe landing area is huge where I'm jumping the jump canopies with WL 1.7-2.3. I have not ever flown backward and I can find clean air for landing. Good for YOU. QuoteSure its easier to say to sit, than teach how to jump with higher winds. You're right on that one. However, I would question how you go about teaching someone to jump in higher winds and how you would handle a situation where the "student" gets hurt while under your high-winds tutelage. Maybe you DO keep an accident report handy at all times regardless of where it comes from.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #25 February 6, 2011 Quoteyou're getting boring. What does drilling have to do with skydiving? Is this a mining forum now?? Egads, man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
