Is this a workable canopy progression?

[MWGemini 0]

I am a student looking into buying my first rig. Since Mirage has the 50% off deal going for the troops deployed to Iraq, I am strongly considering getting a new container from them, as I could get it custom built to my needs. My question is this: is the following canopy progression realistic for a Mirage G3 M4:

* Sabre (or similar) 190
* Sabre (or similar) 170
* Sabre (or similar) 150
* HP Elliptical ~170
* HP Elliptical ~150
* and maybe even as low as a high performance elliptical at ~135

Assuming that an M4 can fit all those canopies, this is probably the route I will go, since I will most likely put 200 jumps or more on each of those canopies (especially the more high performance ones), and I expect to average about 200 jumps per year, so at that rate, this container could last me 5-6 years or more before I would have any need to downsize, assuming I even WANT to downsize further, which I doubt I will.

Thanks,

Mike

[PhreeZone 20]

Here is the shortcut to what the M4 can hold. http://www.miragesys.com/order/sizing/size-m4.html Only reason the Vengence 135 is on the list is because its airlocked and has more pack volume that way. Its calling for a 190 to be "very tight". Trust me... you don't want to be packing a rig that Mirage sas will be very tight for your first rig. Their version of Very tight is VERY tight unlike some manufactors.

To put a 190 in it you are looking at a M5. In terms of mains you can normally go one up and one down from a "medium" fit and have it work. 190/170/150 will be the most unlerss you get a canopy that has larger pack volue due to Cross braces or airlocks.

The Second issue is the reserve size. If you are only willing to jump a 190 main why do you suddenly want to get a container that can only hold a 160 reserve? Odds are when you need that reserve is when you will be low, after a cutaway and you might be landing in someones back yard, do you now want to toss downsizing 30 feet into the mix too?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[MWGemini 0]

So would an M5 be a better bet then? One of the instructors at my DZ has told me that even if it is sized for a 170, I could go 190 pretty easily and 210 if I REALLY tried.

As to the 190 main vs 160 reserve, I probably won't be jumping a 190 long, and will hit a 170 pretty quickly, but I'd like to have about a 170ish reserve, at least for starters.

Assuming I go M5 instead of M4, what would the canopy progression on that be?

190, 170, 150, 170Hp, 150HP, done?

Thanks,

Mike

[PhreeZone 20]

>190, 170, 150, 170Hp, 150HP, done?

Yep.. you are looking at probally 600+ jumps at that point if you want to do it right and are serious about canopy flight.

I've got about 825 jumps and I'm still on my very first container that I bought at jump 38. Its held a 170, 150 and a 135 in all that time.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[MWGemini 0]

Yeah, I don't want to downsize sooner than is safe, but I want to make sure I'm buying the right container for what I want to do and for my skill level. If I can put 190 down to 150 in it, including the HP ellipticals, I figure thats close to 1000 jumps right there, and if it could go any smaller than that (which I doubt) I may not ever need another container.

So, just to confirm, an M5 can hold a PD 176 reserve, and also a 190 down to a 150, correct? Can it be pushed any larger or smaller than that, or is 190-150 the complete range?

Thanks again,

Mike

[PhreeZone 20]

Call Mirage and talk to them. When you order a rig you can tell them the canopies and they will build a rig around it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[MWGemini 0]

Thanks, I'll contact them soon. So much to learn, so little time....


Mike

[Hazarrd 1]

what makes you think that thats the canopy progression you are going to want?

.-.

[GravityGirl 0]

If you want to cram a 190 into a container built for a 170, then try a Spectre. The pack volume is smaller than the Saber2.

Don't get too caught up thinking that this has to be the container to accomodate all your downsizing. With the deal you are getting, your resale value will rock.

I would also not recommend upsizing when and if you switch to an elliptical canopy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[MWGemini 0]

To answer Hazard- I really won't know until I get there, but since it is a large expenditure of money (that I have to sell my car before I can afford a rig anyways), I want to make sure that it is as versatile as possible. I will probably want to get into freeflying and wingsuit flight later on down the road, and this container SEEMS like it would be great for both, and if it is versatile enough to accommodate several canopies, then it will last me much longer. FYI, I load a 170 at about .91 and a 150 at about 1.0. I am a conservative pilot and will not go over a 1.1:1 for a long time, if ever. Even assuming I DO decide one day I want to swoop, after seeing video of Steve Miller (I think) swoop a navigator 220, I figure that any canopy I could fit into this container could be swooped if I had the skill to do it with.

GravityGirl- Why do you recommend against upsizing for elliptical? Many of the threads I have seen on here recommend just that, or MAYBE staying at the same size when going elliptical. Also- my home DZ gear store has a good, low jump Spectre 190 that would be perfect for this. Not sure of the price, but talking to them yesterday, it sounded pretty good.

Thanks,

Mike

[Kris 0]

I have a G3 M4 and I keep a Stiletto 190 in it and it fits great.
170's fit perfectly. I've got a demo Nitro 150 in it right now and it's a little loose, but still fine once I adjusted the closing loop.

As always, YMMV.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[MWGemini 0]

Something the senior instructor/rigger told me today is to ask Mirage if I could get a container made with an M5 reserve container (for the PD 176) and an M4 main container (which suits my canopy skills and progression better). We discussed the pros/cons of M4 vs M5 for a while, and finally settled on an M5 due to the reserve container size, but if Mirage can make the MT-X series with vastly different main and reserve containers, I would think it wouldn't be too hard to make an M4/M5 combination. I'll be e-mailing them tonight.

Thanks,

Mike

[EBSB52 0]

I didn't read thru all that, but as a student I wouldn't be thinking downsize yet. I'm 210 lbs and transitioned to that, Sabre 2 210. In fact, I still fly it at over 300 jumps. I'm real ready to downsize if I had teh green, but I don't and I can wait. I can appreciate thinking ahead, but don't let a budget make you buy smaller just to save a buck down the road.

Buy a canopy no smaller than you weigh. Buy an older one that is in good repair, so you won't have a lot in it, then sell it and you might even make money on it or break even.

The with that money, line up a good container set up that will allow downsizing, but I would say to abandon this, "downsize me" attitiude.

[MWGemini 0]

Bottom line: I will not downsize until both my instructors and I feel it is safe to do so. That being said, I'm flying a Hornet 230 now, and will probably be flying 210s when I get off student status around November. Since I am planning on ordering the container (if I decide to go that route) at the end of the year, I won't be jumping it (and the 190 in it) until spring, by which time I will have 60-70 jumps total (if not more), and will have attended at least one Scott Miller canopy course. Also, a 190 would give me a wing loading of about .81, and I would probably put at least 100 jumps on that before even considering downsizing to a 170, probably more along the lines of 200. Part of the reason I'm planning to wait until the end of the year is to see how well I can fly the 210s and 190s at my DZ (that I cannot fly while on student status, but my instructor has told me I am ready for a 210).

At any rate- this is NOT a safety issue. I will not downsize any sooner than is safe. I just want to make sure that the container I buy is not only safe for my skill level, but will also last me for as long as possible before I have any need to get another one. Judging from the info on the Mirage site, if I can get the M4/M5 combination I discussed above, I will probably be able to use this container forever, since it will be safe now and still allow for a lot of downsizing in the future, over many hundred jumps and several years of experience.

Thanks,

Mike

[MarkM 0]

I just spent the last 8 months bloodying up my fingers jamming a Tri 160 into a Mirage M3, which now fits a Hornet 150 oh-my-God so perfectly. I wouldn't wish trying to pack a square 190 into a M4 on my worst enemy.

I know you have this "I'll be jumping this in 5 years" plan, but I really doubt you'll keep to it. With the 50% deal you can't lose no matter what you're going to do, so buy what works for you now.

[GravityGirl 0]

Quote

GravityGirl- Why do you recommend against upsizing for elliptical? Many of the threads I have seen on here recommend just that, or MAYBE staying at the same size when going elliptical. Also- my home DZ gear store has a good, low jump Spectre 190 that would be perfect for this. Not sure of the price, but talking to them yesterday, it sounded pretty good.

Upsizing will actually present more factors into your transition. The Stiletto is no faster than the Sabre of the same size. It is just more responsive. So you will have the same amount of time in the pattern and for set-up if you keep the canopy in full flight. But you will have the ability to make it go faster if that is your intention.

The idea is that you become a good pilot on the Sabre and if you are wanting more performance after that, then go to the Stiletto. But upsizing in the process, isn't really going to do much for you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[kaerock 1]

Buy used. You're going to downsize eventually, and when you've been in the sport a while and can make an informed decision on what you'll need and what your canopy progression will be. Don't waste the money as in a year or two you're going to need to dump your new rig because your new canopy will be too loose in your container. I bought new at 50 jumps and wish I had waited even longer to purchase a new rig, I would've gotten something that I'd be able to use for another couple of years as my downsizing rate decreases.

-R

Quote

Bottom line: I will not downsize until both my instructors and I feel it is safe to do so. That being said, I'm flying a Hornet 230 now, and will probably be flying 210s when I get off student status around November. Since I am planning on ordering the container (if I decide to go that route) at the end of the year, I won't be jumping it (and the 190 in it) until spring, by which time I will have 60-70 jumps total (if not more), and will have attended at least one Scott Miller canopy course. Also, a 190 would give me a wing loading of about .81, and I would probably put at least 100 jumps on that before even considering downsizing to a 170, probably more along the lines of 200. Part of the reason I'm planning to wait until the end of the year is to see how well I can fly the 210s and 190s at my DZ (that I cannot fly while on student status, but my instructor has told me I am ready for a 210).

At any rate- this is NOT a safety issue. I will not downsize any sooner than is safe. I just want to make sure that the container I buy is not only safe for my skill level, but will also last me for as long as possible before I have any need to get another one. Judging from the info on the Mirage site, if I can get the M4/M5 combination I discussed above, I will probably be able to use this container forever, since it will be safe now and still allow for a lot of downsizing in the future, over many hundred jumps and several years of experience.

Thanks,

Mike

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE