Size comparing sabre2 and safires....

[bdbrown 0]

Just wondering with the way safires are sized would a sabre2 170 be close to a safire 190......

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[mr2mk1g 10]

There's a post on here somewhere by either THE guy who did the sizing on the orriginal safire or someone who worked at the company at the time. In that post the reasoning is explaned... but I can't find it and haven't been able to for a while now. I think it's in the swooping or canopy control section...

For what it's worth, they've changed their sizing on the safireII so that a 170 sabre = a 169 safire (ok so within a foot).

I look forward to either someone finding the post or reiterating it's content.

[TALONSKY 0]

I e-mailed Icarus and explained that this had been talked about here and if they could give me a reply that I could post so here is Icarus's reply

The Safire-1 and the Omega are measured differently to PD canopies. As a rough guide a Safire-1 or Omega is about the same size as the next size down - eg A Safire 149 is about a 135. A Safire 119 is about a 109. Use an equation of 8%.
The Safire-2 and Omni (Omni supercedes Omega) are measured the same as
PD.

All other Icarus Canopies are measured the same as PD.

The reason for the difference is due to Precision measuring their canopies differently. Icarus have always measured the same as PD however when we originally commenced in the USA, Precision were building parachutes for us under license and were doing it using their size equations and not Icarus/PD's.

We have therefore had to wait to supercede these models to change the size equation.

Only the Safire and Omega were affected.

Blue skies
Simon

Icarus Canopies
USA: 1S671 Bender Lane, West Chicago, IL 60185, USA
Ph. (630) 562-2735, Fax (630) 231-4430
Europe: P.I. El Ramassar, c/ Vallés, s/n O8520,
Les Franqueses, Barcelona, SPAIN.
Ph. (34) 938 496 432, Fax (34) 938 497 971
www.icaruscanopies.com

[Tonto 1]

Quote

Just wondering with the way safires are sized would a sabre2 170 be close to a safire 190......

So after all that, the answer is... "Yes."

(Tonto does a little dance and smiles because his Safire 119 is about the same size as his Stilleto 107![;))

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[bdbrown 0]

thanks for the help all,
is it friday yet

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[GroundZero 0]

just found this post...

The measuring of the Omega and Safire by Precision was done by Beezy Shaw and myself. This was done a few years before we hired Simon Mundell as "marketing", (note: Simon was never used in any technical capacity.)

When we received the first patterns of the Omega, Jyro called the base pattern size a 125. Beezy took the completed canopy and physically layed it on top of a PD 7 cell and found that it was much larger than 120 something, in fact it was almost identical to the 135 size. We then called that base size a 135 when compared to all other similar PD canopies and our own.

When we received the first Safire pattern, again Jyro's size 125, we compared it to the Sabre, Stilletto and our Monarch and Batwing... Again it was most definitely a 135. We then called all Safires of that size 135, whether built by Precision or New Zealand Aerosports (Jyro's mannufacturing).

The sizing of the crossbraced canopies followed similar comparisons with existing canopies...i.e. the EXTreme FX and VX are correctly measured and sized. Comparing all those canopies to other manufactures meant apples/apples thinking.

The real measuring snafu began with the Icarus Crossfire. A "marketing" decision was made to call the Crossfire something different. The actual measurement was about 10% larger than the stated measurement. Prove it to yourself by taking any Crossfire and lay it on a similar stated size, similar planform canopy. For instance, take a Crossfire 149 and lay it on top of a Stilletto 150 or a Nitron 150 (all elliptical canopies), you'll find that the Nitron and Stilletto are much the same span and chord. The Crossfire will be a bit larger. (I'm not sure what has happened to the measuring with the Omni and Safire2 as those were after my time with Icarus.)

How does this support marketing? Imagine your first jump on a 150 sized canopy. Downsizing from the Blando 170 to a SomethingNew 150, you can land the SomethingNew 150 as easily as you did your old Blando 170. (As well you should, you just went from your 170 to something like a 167.) You would be thrilled with your skills with the new "Little" canopy and tell everyone how great it is... Pretty neat marketing, eh?

At Precision, we have always produced main canopies that measure equivilently to other existing canopies. The statement that we ever measured differently is bullshit. Only did our new-hire marketing guy ever devise a measuring system that ever varied from the norm.

Take all of the PD main canopies, all of the Precision mains...compare size for size and you'll see that we have always used the same thinking when measuring our main canopies.

Now reserves... it gets confusing again... but that's another story and another thread...

Chris

Precision Aerodynamics
chris@NOSPAMprecision.net

[theskydiveguy 0]

Hi,

I have a Safire 1 169 and I layed it out on top of my buddies Sabre 1 170 and there is VERY little difference, maybe 3 square feet..

Just my observation.

~Jeff

[GroundZero 0]

exactly...

When we measured the Original Safire... we compared it to the existing canopies....

Thanks for your input... Precision and PD measure main canopies the same way.

Chris

[mr2mk1g 10]

So is a safire one 169 8% smaller than a sabre one 170 as we've been led to believe or are they the same?

[GroundZero 0]

same size..

[TALONSKY 0]

OK, by my post I really do not want to point a finger at any company just relaying information. Now as for a Safire 1 169 size. I use to own one. About two years ago I compared my Safire 169 against a Sabre 150(did a hop-n-pop in the rain). To measure the canopy here is what I did (I know this may not be extremely accurate but I feel it at least compare the two well):”all measurements were taken with the material pulled tight on flat on the ground”
1) I measured the length at the nose from seam to seam on both canopies ( Sabre 150 was 5” longer than a Safire 169)
2) I measured the center cell on each for width( Sabre was 4” shorter than the Safire)
3) Then because the Safire is lightly elliptical I measured the end cells for width(Safire tapers 13-1/2” center to end)
4) Then I created a 9” thick (flat) solid model of each in Cadkey and got a mass reading. Which stated the Sabre had a bigger mass(not by much)

So with this a Safire 169 is just a little smaller than a Sabre 150. Which verifies what Icuras had told me.
(both canopies were made in 2000)
Blue Skies
Kirk

By the way it is not a type o I did compare my 169 to a Sabre 150

[TALONSKY 0]

I would suggest to anyone that owns an original Safire or Omega and questions the validity of the size discrepancy that you find someone with a similar sized PD product and compares them(actually lay them over the top of each other or take a tape measure to each). It definitely put the subject to rest for me.
Kirk

[JackC 0]

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Just wondering with the way safires are sized would a sabre2 170 be close to a safire 190......

So if both canopies are the same size, which number do I use to work out wing loadings, 170 or 190?

[TALONSKY 0]

Well I personally would figure it out to what a PD product would be so the 170SF.
Kirk
Please do not just take the word of this thread go and find someone with a similar sized canopy if you have a Safire 190 compare it to a Sabre 170 and see what you find out.

[pdj6p 0]

I don't think you can just compare the safire and sabre on size. I now own a safire 1-169 and used to jump a sabre 1-170, and in my opinion the sabre flys faster than the safire.

Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Good advice is always to air on the side of caution...

[TALONSKY 0]

Quote

I don't think you can just compare the safire and sabre on size. I now own a safire 1-169 and used to jump a sabre 1-170, and in my opinion the sabre flys faster than the safire.

When I had my Safire 169, I was told by Icarus about their sizing. I talked to people at my DZ everyone told me they did not buy it was different than stated. I had my own idea on it and "Yes it was a Sabre 150 I compared mine to on the ground". As I stated before the proof is in the putting so go and compare for yourself. The manufacturer has already stated it is smaller than stated and I proved for myself it is.
Kirk
Also I just remembered that I compared my Safire 169 to a PISA Hornet 170. I did the similar tape measurements and came up that my Safire was 15 Square Feet smaller.

[TALONSKY 0]

Also as far as performance goes it just depends on the planform. I jump a VX 109 and demo'd a Velocity 120, between those two the Velocity out performed and was faster than my VX.
Kirk

[TALONSKY 0]

In fact please go and compare your Safire 169 to a Sabre 170 or a Sabre 150 and post your findings. I have been in these forums trying to let people know about this issue and even with a statement from the manufacturer people still do not believe it. So Please compare (measure or lay on top of each other) and post your results.
Kirk

[JackC 0]

There have been plenty of discussions about canopy measurements and as far as I know, no general consensus of opinion as to which one is the definitive answer. I know that different manufacturers measure their canopies in different ways. Para-gear independently measured a bunch of them and put their findings in a chart. I guess my question was more along the lines of "is there some standard by which canopy size and therefore wing loading can be measured?" If there is no definitive size for a canopy, wing loading calculations could be + or - 0.1 depending on whos numbers you use. Does this make any sense?

[TALONSKY 0]

Yes, it makes sense. Your right there is no standard way of measuring canopies. I believe PD works off of the projected SQ foot.
Kirk

[pdj6p 0]

Mabe I did not make myself clear. I was in no way disputing the size differences of the two canopies I was stating that the performance of the sabre is higher than that of the safire.

Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment.