Reserve line twists

[ozzy13 0]

Good post. I myself removed my rsl after this one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEau0dc67e4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I want to be clear of my main before the reserve comes out. I don't pull real low so if I have a spinner I will have plenty of Alt. But that's just me. Right wrong. I don't know.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[virgin-burner 1]

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you had 3 reserve-rides in 187 jumps!? i dont think your main-problem lies in wether having an RSL or not..

I've had 3 too, all with RSL on. Out of those events, I choose not to use it anymore.
Get it, different experience - different point of view.
It's nothing more than personal preference which comes out of personal experience.
I see no system that prevails in judgement 'what's right'.

maybe you guys should start a support-group; or take a packing-class together.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[skydiverek 63]

Pause at 1:18 and you can see that Skyhook disconnected (the reserve PC and bridle are NOT being pulled by the main, which is like 50 feet away).

"Clear of your main"? How can you entange in it? I do not understand. In you exapmle, since Skyhook did not do its job, so you were way clear of the main!

[reactor 1]

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Why no rsl on camera jump?????

I am surprised someone with 1000+ experience is asking this question, if your profile is correct.
This has been ask and answer multiple times in the forum.

Who says? Someone with a virgin profile? Is it your real first post here or just hiding?

no need to hide. This is my first post.
blank profile? I am not member of any parachute association. I only have 3 jumps back to 2008 while I travel to Australia. Since then, I visit dz.com regularly.
There is no skydive activity in my country, so jump number stay at 3. I registered early this year because I plan to do more jump this year.

Disconnect RSL on camera jump due to possible of entangle with camera equipment has been mention in many threads again and again.
So when Stayhigh whose profile has 5 years and 1300 jumps experience ask "Why no rsl on camera jump?????" surprised me. I just couldn't stop myself to reply on this one.
No disrespect, just curious.

Sorry, English isn't my native language, if some wording is unappropriated. But I don't feel welcome when the reply sounds like suspect a newbie.

[danornan 79]

Many people in denial, relying on anecdotal information and not willing to go with analytical data, the REAL odds. Just because something has happened to you, a friend or "someone heard" does not make it a logical fact.

It appears that a good, well know skydiver recently died simply because she either did not have an RSL or it was disconnected. Some will split hairs and say she died because she failed to deploy her reserve, but if her container was equipped with an RSL, the odds are that at the low altitude she cut-away, her reserve would have come out. Does not guarantee that it will work, but something is better than nothing!

As it was, NOTHING positive happened after she cut away, except that maybe a few more people will add or reconnect their RSL.

Things that haven't happen, happen all the time. Choosing when to deploy your reserve, when you are ready, after a cut away, in most cases, is not a good back up plan.

I have an RSL and have used it several times successfully, but that in it's self is not a good reason to have one. Just because someone had a bad experience with one is not a good reason to not have one.

The ONLY good reason to have one is the 30 years of everyone's previous experience. The REAL numbers.

Dano

[JanuszPS 0]

@ 1:15 just right after cutaway I can see the reserve bridle on the right side of the view.
It can also be a reason of a quick reserve pull as in the next short while the reserve cord is visible (fully extracted) by the left hand.

@ Ozzy
Did the cut away and reserve handles were pulled at the same time or just with delay of fraction of second?
The reserve deployment was much more similar to RSL rather Skyhook use.

@DSE
+1
I jump WS w/o RSL although the RSL might prevent some serious accidents but I prefer to prevent more common scenario of being wrapped by the extracting bridle/lines/reserve after unstable cutaway while flying WS.

j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[JanuszPS 0]

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maybe you guys should start a support-group; or take a packing-class together.

+1, although I know a guy with 40 jumps and 4 cutaways
j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[virgin-burner 1]

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maybe you guys should start a support-group; or take a packing-class together.

+1, although I know a guy with 40 jumps and 4 cutaways
j.

well, in some cases, skydiving may just not be for you!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[pchapman 279]

A reply to someone else:

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I'll put my 79 chops against your anecdotes any day. See I've actually done real world testing

Hey, if you can share some more ideas about chops from that much experience, I'm all for it.

[ufk22 33]

Reserve deployed w/line twists=inconveniant
no reserve or line strech at impact=dangerous

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[format 1]

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A reply to someone else:

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I'll put my 79 chops against your anecdotes any day. See I've actually done real world testing

Hey, if you can share some more ideas about chops from that much experience, I'm all for it.

+1
How about some hesitating reserve openings?
If there weren't any, no wonder you still use RSL and I don't.

What goes around, comes later.

[Divalent 145]

@Ozzy13: Could you comment on the how well you think the Skyhook functioned in this situation? When I compare the time to opening of your reserved in this video to those shown in the skyhook demo (link below), it seems slower, suggesting that it might not have worked, or might have not fully worked. (Was your reserve PC and bag still attached to your main?) Obviously, trying to time something by rapid stop action on Youtube is not ideal, so my impression may be incorrect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-WBBLAgE_s See the example of a skyhook deploy from a spinning canopy at about 4:30.

Anyway, just seeking information. Thanks

[ozzy13 0]

Line twist in my reserve was due too poor body position. If I didn't have a rsl I would have been able to cutaway get stable and deploy reserve. I'm not saying the rsl caused the problem here. I saying because of the rsl I could not get a better body position for a better reserve opening. Yes cutting away flipping over getting stable then deploying reserve i will lose more alt i dont find it to be a problem at the alt i deploy at. I mostly do tandem video and affi so I normally don't deploy below 3500ft and for me that is plenty of time to decide if I'm keeping it or going to reserve. Here is one I kept. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATxaAA6jpvs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I rather not jump with a rsl but that's just me. I want my reserve coming out when I want it too not when I cutaway.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[ozzy13 0]

First let me say talk to your instructors at your dz about info like this. You have know idea who you are talking to on here. With that said the skyjook is a great invention. I think it works really good with students and tandems. When you see this video. I have to ask how many times did they shoot it to get that. Here is a real life video that if this guy didn't have a skyhook he prob be really hurt or dead. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QECtqCRNKxs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Everyone has to make their own decision on works best for them.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[Ron 10]

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I'll put my 79 chops against your anecdotes any day. See I've actually done real world testing to see if my theories are correct. There are 3 reasons to not jump an RSL. Cameras, CRW, and ego.

Love how you just ignore the video I posted of me getting slung ass over teakettle on a cutaway.

Face it, while YOUR anecdotal evidence goes to your theory, it only takes ONE example to prove your theory that "it is a myth" as crap.

As for Ego... Ego is only thinking your opinion is correct while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

And you keep forgetting that people have captured their reserve PC and taken it to impact before due to spinning after a cutaway.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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There was a fatality at Flock n' Dock last year that could have potentially/probably been avoided had an RSL been part of the setup

To be fair, it also could have been prevented by:
* Cutting away above 500 feet
* Pulling the reserve faster
* Smarter main canopy choice with a WS

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,078]

>I was very lucky that I was over a very large wide open field with no obstacles

Sounds like you were also very lucky that you had an RSL. Had you taken the extra time to get stable at that altitude we might have been reading about this in the Incidents forum.

[DSE 5]

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There was a fatality at Flock n' Dock last year that could have potentially/probably been avoided had an RSL been part of the setup

To be fair, it also could have been prevented by:
* Cutting away above 500 feet
* Pulling the reserve faster
* Smarter main canopy choice with a WS

To be more fair, it could have been prevented by better health practices, being younger, less coffee, or warmer weather, too.
As best we know, Pete was unconscious and unaware of altitude. For all we know, he may have thought he had time to get stable after pulling the cutaway. If he had an RSL in place, it's entirely possible it would not have been high enough, but it would have offered him a better chance of survival, and no amount of anti-RSL rhetoric or guessing will change that fact. I've watched the video and reviewed what I saw that day at least a hundred times; I'm confident he was unresponsive until just before he chopped.

As mentioned before, I don't use an RSL; I often jump a large camera rig. But I do mostly agree with JP that there are far too few reasons to not jump with one. Worse, I fear some newbies will read this and construe that the "cool kids" aren't using them, why should I?"
At the end of the conversation, it needs to be crystal clear that RSL's have saved FAR more lives than they have contributed to any additional problem.

[Scrumpot 1]

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If you get something caught with the equipment on your head it might not be a good idea to launch a reserve in the middle of the mess.

Also because if the RSL is on the same side of many camera set ups (or even if the camera is top-of-head), the RSL itself can (and has in the past proven to) be itself, a potential snag hazard. - FWIW.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Ron 10]

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Worse, I fear some newbies will read this and construe that the "cool kids" aren't using them, why should I?"

And I fear that some people will just ignore that they have caused issues and assume that having one is an excuse not to practice proper procedures..... Like watching people only pull the cutaway since, "I have an RSL". And you and I both have seen cases of this.

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At the end of the conversation, it needs to be crystal clear that RSL's have saved FAR more lives than they have contributed to any additional problem.

And I have never said anything to the contrary.... But I really dislike people acting like they are a "save all" with no downside whatsoever.

And I have constantly said people should have an RSL till they have a mal and land having pulled both handles.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[councilman24 37]

If he demo's that reserve you may have lost a sale. He won't be able to jump anymore, if he's even alive.

What would be worse is if he gets away with it, once.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ozzy13 0]

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@ 1:15 just right after cutaway I can see the reserve bridle on the right side of the view.
It can also be a reason of a quick reserve pull as in the next short while the reserve cord is visible (fully extracted) by the left hand.

@ Ozzy
Did the cut away and reserve handles were pulled at the same time or just with delay of fraction of second?
The reserve deployment was much more similar to RSL rather Skyhook use. I cutaway then pulled reserve.

@DSE
+1
I jump WS w/o RSL although the RSL might prevent some serious accidents but I prefer to prevent more common scenario of being wrapped by the extracting bridle/lines/reserve after unstable cutaway while flying WS.

j.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[DSE 5]

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But I really dislike people acting like they are a "save all" with no downside whatsoever.

We're in agreement. The same can be said for AAD's and MARD's too. I do use an AAD (even tho there are some jackasses that claim an AAD won't fire in a wingsuit skydive), no MARD, and no RSL here.
I'm coming from the perspective of the average skydiver, vs the guy that is exceptionally current and has some unique needs ie; cameras, very high wingloading, etc.)

[jerm 0]

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I'll put my 79 chops against your anecdotes any day. See I've actually done real world testing to see if my theories are correct. There are 3 reasons to not jump an RSL. Cameras, CRW, and ego.

most of us have done real-world testing, and many of us, myself included, have data that directly contradicts your assertions. Ron has posted video that debunks your 'myth' claim. I've also posted a bunch of very plausible real-world reasons why instability is quite possible, even probably, and you've conveniently ignored them.

Please explain away everything sited above. in the meantime, i call shenanigans on your myth myth

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[JanuszPS 0]

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And I fear that some people will just ignore that they have caused issues and assume that having one is an excuse not to practice proper procedures..... Like watching people only pull the cutaway since, "I have an RSL". And you and I both have seen cases of this.

Believe or not, but I was on a jump where one guy had a total mal and he waited for AAD activation falling down in a perfect boxman position
It was on some BWC where relatively experienced jumpers should be jumping.

j.
Edit: fortunately it was a successful AAD fire

Back to Poland... back home.