kallend 2,108 #1 November 11, 2015 Yet another canopy collision fatality last weekend. *Apparently* (this is not established yet) due to inadequate separation followed by a collision and a wrap. I'm bring this up here rather than in the "Incidents" forum because my comments are general in nature rather than specific to this incident. I still observe remarkably lazy tracking after formation skydives. If you only get a couple of hundred feet separation, then in the event of off heading openings you simply don't have time to take evasive action when necessary. Tracking is a life-saving skill. If your tracking is poor, practice until it gets better. I see very few skydivers in the US (other than CRW dogs) with hook knives. Yet when all else has failed, the hook knife may be the last thing between you and a coffin.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #2 November 11, 2015 QuoteIf your tracking is poor, practice until it gets better. I would guess that a lot of people have no concrete way to evaluate their tracking skills, nor how to measure improvement. I did a couple of belly jumps last weekend, the first in many months. After I was home I was looking at my Flysight GPS data to evaluate my tracking. I wish more people had access to such data for training. I recently ordered a second unit so I could let friends use it.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #3 November 11, 2015 There are a number of posts in the Incidents forum discussing entanglements/wraps, they would prolly be better here.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #4 November 11, 2015 dthamesQuoteIf your tracking is poor, practice until it gets better. I would guess that a lot of people have no concrete way to evaluate their tracking skills, nor how to measure improvement. I did a couple of belly jumps last weekend, the first in many months. After I was home I was looking at my Flysight GPS data to evaluate my tracking. I wish more people had access to such data for training. I recently ordered a second unit so I could let friends use it. I don't know about that. I can easily evaluate my tracking by looking down between my feet and watching the others in my group. It's a good way to know where everyone else is, too (small groups - 4 or so). As the groups get bigger, then there are people tracking closer to my heading. I can then evaluate my skills by seeing how well I keep up with those people. I still look down between my feet to keep track of everyone in my group as best I can. I also start to reach up as my canopy is opening. I wait until it's fully open (or at least the slider is all the way down) before I grab my rears, but I'm really close to them. That way I can make a quick "avoidance turn" when necessary."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #5 November 11, 2015 As far as carrying hook knives goes, I always carry one, but using it is another matter. Early in my career I found myself below cutaway altitude after a bit of unsuccessful mid air rigging. Rode a barely stable main canopy down, until I got nailed by turbulence close to the ground. Wile.E. Coyote style impact. Got away with a few extra lumps and bruises, but after that series of foolishness and screw ups I realised that if I'd used my hook knife to snip one line, I could have landed the main quite easily. Didn't even think about the hook knife at the time. So not only do you need to carry a knife, you need to include using it in your extra EP drills. And yes, I gave myself an uppercut.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #6 November 12, 2015 When we put up my cutaway trainer, already on a rock climbing swivel so we can spin folks, we can add hook knives and scrap line for knife practice. And show how bad some of the knives are. We could also add blind folds and blown brakes. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #7 November 12, 2015 kallendYet another canopy collision fatality last weekend. *Apparently* (this is not established yet) due to inadequate separation followed by a collision and a wrap. I'm bring this up here rather than in the "Incidents" forum because my comments are general in nature rather than specific to this incident. I still observe remarkably lazy tracking after formation skydives. If you only get a couple of hundred feet separation, then in the event of off heading openings you simply don't have time to take evasive action when necessary. Tracking is a life-saving skill. If your tracking is poor, practice until it gets better. I see very few skydivers in the US (other than CRW dogs) with hook knives. Yet when all else has failed, the hook knife may be the last thing between you and a coffin. kallendYet another canopy collision fatality last weekend. *Apparently* (this is not established yet) due to inadequate separation followed by a collision and a wrap. I'm bring this up here rather than in the "Incidents" forum because my comments are general in nature rather than specific to this incident. I still observe remarkably lazy tracking after formation skydives. If you only get a couple of hundred feet separation, then in the event of off heading openings you simply don't have time to take evasive action when necessary. Tracking is a life-saving skill. If your tracking is poor, practice until it gets better. I see very few skydivers in the US (other than CRW dogs) with hook knives. Yet when all else has failed, the hook knife may be the last thing between you and a coffin. John makes good points here and I will add to them. I am a load organizer at a big DZ and one of my responsibilities is to help jumpers get better in every aspect of the skydive. We can all get lazy without realizing we are, so here are a few things that I bring up routinely in dirt dives and use during critiques. 1. Every time you track, it's an opportunity to practice your track. Never just track, track HARD. Track AS HARD AS YOU CAN! If you aren't familiar with how to truly max track with a flat trajectory, ask someone to help you learn the skill. The difference between an "ok" track and an excellent one can literally be hundreds of feet of separation, and that can mean the difference in avoiding a collision. 2. Get out FAST! I see (and film) a lot of people who are good at tracking but waste time leaving the formation. They go through the motions but take way too long to turn, pick a heading, and get started. Remember that you are tracking faster after the first few seconds than in the beginning, so every second you waste leaving the formation is a second of time you don't get at the end of your track when you are really covering ground and creating separation. When it's time to leave "turn and burn", or as I suggest to jumpers "leave like you're already low". 3. Break off at the designated altitude! I can't count the times I have heard jumpers mention "getting that last grip" before breaking off even though they knew they were at the break off altitude. This is a deadly sin in skydiving. Case in point. I was shooting outside video of an experienced group one day and planned to deploy in the center as camera flyers usually do, but planned to "take it down a bit" rather than deploy at break off because we were opening down wind to accommodate multiple groups on an Otter load and the headwind getting home at the planned break off of 5,500 feet was significantly higher than it was down lower. The plan would have worked just fine except the jumpers failed to leave when they were supposed to, thus giving them less time to track. Add the Murphy's law factor that one of the jumpers had a near 180 during opening and that cake was baked. The head-on came within about 15 feet of reality. The DZ broke the video down for educational purposes and can be viewed at the link below. Also note that after avoiding the first jumper there were 2 others in close proximity. Remember, every second you aren't tracking you are insuring a tighter crowd at deployment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvEU1tXoVE Finally, carry a hook knife on every jump, and not a worthless plastic finger knife that will snap the first time you need it. Get a knife with a full size handle and mount it in a pocket sewn to the front of of your jumpsuit thigh on your strong arm side. If you routinely jump without a jumpsuit, find another easily accessible spot. Remember, if you can't get to it when you need it, it's like it's not there. Anyone who has ever been in a wrap will tell you it's chaos, so getting to a knife that's tucked away likely won't happen. On hook knives, remember this. If you don't have a hook knife when you need one, you will probably never need one again.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #8 November 12, 2015 obelixtim As far as carrying hook knives goes, I always carry one Why? Are you affraid to overload your canopy? Have at least two in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #9 November 12, 2015 Hellis*** As far as carrying hook knives goes, I always carry one Why? Are you affraid to overload your canopy? Have at least two in my opinion. Skydiver to CRW dog: "Why do you have 2 hook knives?" CRW dog: "Because I'll probably drop the first one."Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #10 November 12, 2015 Once we get a fair number of jumps under our belts, it is very easy to become complacent at break off and in the pattern when jumping with friends. Think about most of our jump habits. We usually jump the same one or two DZs. We usually jump with the same group of friends. Now think about our thought process when going somewhere new and getting on a load that we don't know anyone. We usually track our asses off on those loads! Why? Because we don't have that same false level of comfort as jumping with our regulars. The last brutal canopy collision I witnessed was between best friends on opening. They were on a jump with all old friends. One didn't survive. At this years nationals I was almost run into under canopy by a team mate. Never let your guard down. Even on a two or three way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #11 November 12, 2015 Hellis*** As far as carrying hook knives goes, I always carry one Why? Are you affraid to overload your canopy? Have at least two in my opinion. But where would I put my machete? And my seeing eye dog?My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #12 November 12, 2015 obelixtim****** As far as carrying hook knives goes, I always carry one Why? Are you affraid to overload your canopy? Have at least two in my opinion. But where would I put my machete? And my seeing eye dog? I think carrying a hook knife is good advice. Better advice: Carry a hook knife and know how to get it out in a hurry, and make sure it is one worth having. Any plastic POS knife isn't going to cut it when you really need it and will most likely just turn into a waste of time and focus. ( I carry an combat cut-down knife, single piece steel.) The real discussion focus needs to be on avoidance. topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #13 November 12, 2015 The old style orange plastic knife is indeed a POS and as others have said has been shown to fall apart when used. It is awful that paragear still sells them: http://www.paragear.com/skydiving/10000061/K11505/Z-KNIFE-HOOK-KNIFE There are other smallish plastic knives that are good quality: http://www.square1.com/manufacturers/square1/p1155.asp#4inchPlastichookknifePeople are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #14 November 12, 2015 chuckakers****** As far as carrying hook knives goes, I always carry one Why? Are you affraid to overload your canopy? Have at least two in my opinion. Skydiver to CRW dog: "Why do you have 2 hook knives?" CRW dog: "Because I'll probably drop the first one." When I got my first bit of CRW training, I was asked why a CRW dog carries 7 hook knives? Answer: Because they didn't have room for anymore.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #15 November 13, 2015 grimmie The last brutal canopy collision I witnessed was between best friends on opening. They were on a jump with all old friends. One didn't survive. Never let your guard down. Even on a two or three way. Man, it crushes you when you lose good friends. Sorry to hear about that. My last canopy collision was on a 2 way, both of us in line twists. It was 35 years ago, when canopies were slower and lines were fatter, so I was able to spread eagle and bounce off the lines. Never get complacent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #16 November 13, 2015 chuckakers 1. Every time you track, it's an opportunity to practice your track. 2. Get out FAST! I see (and film) a lot of people who are good at tracking but waste time leaving the formation. 3. Break off at the designated altitude! I couldn't agree with you more on all 3 points. I tell my students that great tracking is a HUGE survival skill. I've gotten out of a few tight spots with it. I feel I'm a pretty good tracker, can keep up with some pretty good people. I occasionally mention to a fellow jumper I've videoed or observed on how they could improve their tracking. No one really seems to have cared yet. One particularly poor tracker with 1000+ jumps sad "Well THAT'S how I track." Oh well, at least I can still keep leaving them in the dust. I'd like to hold a Lodi-style tracking contest sometime, for prizes, maybe, and bragging rights. Maybe that could generate some interest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #17 November 13, 2015 JohnMitchell One particularly poor tracker with 1000+ jumps sad "Well THAT'S how I track." To which I would reply, "on jumps with someone besides me." "Bullet proof attitudes make the biggest craters." - unkownChuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #18 November 13, 2015 wolfriverjoe I can easily evaluate my tracking by looking down between my feet and watching the others in my group. It's a good way to know where everyone else is, too (small groups - 4 or so). I still look down between my feet to keep track of everyone in my group as best I can. Although it's nice to know where everyone is behind you, I feel it's also very important to watch where you're going. If anything is going to kill you while you're tracking, it will probably be out in front, down below you. An open canopy, or a jumper tracking the same direction getting ready to pull, or a jumper from another group who exited too soon after you. I would advise looking forward and below more than back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #19 November 13, 2015 chuckakers ****** As far as carrying hook knives goes, I always carry one Why? Are you affraid to overload your canopy? Have at least two in my opinion. Skydiver to CRW dog: "Why do you have 2 hook knives?" CRW dog: "Because I'll probably drop the first one. Damn! I must have dropped #3 and 4 in the hangar" FIFY Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #20 November 13, 2015 JohnMitchell *** I can easily evaluate my tracking by looking down between my feet and watching the others in my group. It's a good way to know where everyone else is, too (small groups - 4 or so). I still look down between my feet to keep track of everyone in my group as best I can. Although it's nice to know where everyone is behind you, I feel it's also very important to watch where you're going. If anything is going to kill you while you're tracking, it will probably be out in front, down below you. An open canopy, or a jumper tracking the same direction getting ready to pull, or a jumper from another group who exited too soon after you. I would advise looking forward and below more than back. I agree, John. Looking behind you may make you feel good, but it wont help you. Danger is in front, below, or to your side. When I track, I scan those directions. If someone is tracking to my side (large formation), I try to make sure there's enough separation, and keep an eye on them during opening. It's the people you don't see that are more dangerous.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #21 November 13, 2015 JohnMitchell *** I can easily evaluate my tracking by looking down between my feet and watching the others in my group. It's a good way to know where everyone else is, too (small groups - 4 or so). I still look down between my feet to keep track of everyone in my group as best I can. Although it's nice to know where everyone is behind you, I feel it's also very important to watch where you're going. If anything is going to kill you while you're tracking, it will probably be out in front, down below you. An open canopy, or a jumper tracking the same direction getting ready to pull, or a jumper from another group who exited too soon after you. I would advise looking forward and below more than back. Oh, absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that I only look back at my group during breakoff. (maybe if it's just one group going out of a 182) One of my "closer calls" involved someone from a larger group (10 maybe?) I was part of tracking in a curve and ending up directly below me as he was waving off (maybe 100 feet below or so). I was keeping an eye on him the whole time, and I saw the waveoff. I was sort of expecting it, and I had stretched out just a little bit more, and was past him as I passed through his level. The "head on a swivel" concept is one that I practice from breakoff to landing."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kuai43 7 #22 November 18, 2015 Quote I am a load organizer at a big DZ and one of my responsibilities is to help jumpers get better in every aspect of the skydive. We can all get lazy without realizing we are, so here are a few things that I bring up routinely in dirt dives and use during critiques. 1. Every time you track, it's an opportunity to practice your track. Never just track, track HARD. Track AS HARD AS YOU CAN! If you aren't familiar with how to truly max track with a flat trajectory, ask someone to help you learn the skill. The difference between an "ok" track and an excellent one can literally be hundreds of feet of separation, and that can mean the difference in avoiding a collision. 2. Get out FAST! I see (and film) a lot of people who are good at tracking but waste time leaving the formation. They go through the motions but take way too long to turn, pick a heading, and get started. Remember that you are tracking faster after the first few seconds than in the beginning, so every second you waste leaving the formation is a second of time you don't get at the end of your track when you are really covering ground and creating separation. When it's time to leave "turn and burn", or as I suggest to jumpers "leave like you're already low". 3. Break off at the designated altitude! I can't count the times I have heard jumpers mention "getting that last grip" before breaking off even though they knew they were at the break off altitude. This is a deadly sin in skydiving. Case in point. I was shooting outside video of an experienced group one day and planned to deploy in the center as camera flyers usually do, but planned to "take it down a bit" rather than deploy at break off because we were opening down wind to accommodate multiple groups on an Otter load and the headwind getting home at the planned break off of 5,500 feet was significantly higher than it was down lower. The plan would have worked just fine except the jumpers failed to leave when they were supposed to, thus giving them less time to track. Add the Murphy's law factor that one of the jumpers had a near 180 during opening and that cake was baked. The head-on came within about 15 feet of reality. The DZ broke the video down for educational purposes and can be viewed at the link below. Also note that after avoiding the first jumper there were 2 others in close proximity. Remember, every second you aren't tracking you are insuring a tighter crowd at deployment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvEU1tXoVE I would add #4 (or #5, according to the video)... Don't watch your canopy while it's deploying. Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #23 November 18, 2015 kuai43 Quote I would add #4 (or #5, according to the video)... Don't watch your canopy while it's deploying. Interesting reply. I use my peripheral vision to look for potential trouble during deployment as much as possible. With that said, remember that a jumper's first priority during deployment is to insure a good, flyable canopy. The second is to look for and avoid traffic. Besides, a jumper can't do much about traffic with a sniveling canopy over their head anyway. In this particular case looking around during deployment probably would have made no difference anyway because the other jumper's canopy didn't turn toward me until the very end of his deployment while I was looking at him. Note at 1:02 I am looking at him and not my canopy when his canopy makes a 90 degree right turn toward me.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #24 May 18, 2016 Hellis*** As far as carrying hook knives goes, I always carry one Why? Are you affraid to overload your canopy? Have at least two in my opinion. The one thing not mentioned, you have to be mentally prepared to use it, and use in soon enough for it help.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #25 May 19, 2016 This year at Safety day, like I proposed above, I took out a bunch of old lines and risers. I let whoever wanted to try cutting them with POS zap knife, jack the ripper, square one knife, a first responder folding rescue knife not useful for skydiving and a benchmade hook knife. Probably a couple more. The POS, because it didn't break and was new, actually worked as well as most of the others. The worst IMHO was the benchmade. The round cutting edge seem to take more force than the straight edges using shearing motion. But they all cut type 8 risers and 5 or 6 lines easily under tension. Someone pointed out that the riser hard housings for the cutaway cable would make cutting the rear riser not so easy. Something I freely admit I hadn't thought about. Folks need to practice cutting hanging with their knife and their location. My hook knife location is on the back of my chest mount altimeter pillow. It is on my sternum, a part that never bends so has never been in the way. The handle is down and is accessible by either hand equally. And it keeps my chest mount pillow from flipping and the altimeter always in view.If someone wants extra hook knifes to hand to folks for cheap look for cattle ear tag removal knives at Tractor Supply/ Farm and Fleet. Pretty much looks like a jack the ripper only a little flexible. http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/y-tex-tag-removal-knife?cm_vc=-10005 $5 so don't mind giving them away with a cord tied to them. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
