stiletto reline

[skymedic 0]

I sent an email recently to PD about getting my new to me stilleto relined. I would like to have a Vectran line set put on the thing. the Email I got back was they will not do this. I am a little confused as to why they can't do this but whatever. Any one know a rigger out there that would be able to do a vectran reline on this thing?

thanks,

marc

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[GravityGirl 0]

Do you want to be a test jumper?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[diablopilot 2]

Why do you want a Vectran Lineset? The Stiletto has no need for one.


I know of at lease 4 major lofts that could do the work, but I doubt any of them is going to buck PD's wisdom and do it.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[linestretch 0]

The Stiletto has no need for one

Why? Canopy goes outa trim, it opens like shit. What makes it any different than any other canopy. Why have vectran on a saphire?

my pics & stuff!

[masterrigger1 2]

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I sent an email recently to PD about getting my new to me stilleto relined. I would like to have a Vectran line set put on the thing. the Email I got back was they will not do this. I am a little confused as to why they can't do this but whatever. Any one know a rigger out there that would be able to do a vectran reline on this thing?

thanks,

marc

Marc,
One of the reasons that they will not do it is this. The line files that have set up are for Spectra. These files have added length(in reference to the nominal dimensions) for shrinkage.
In other words they would have to compute a new line file for that canopy,and for one canopy it is probably not worth the effort and time.

I have four 120 Stilettos that I have changed over to Vectran a few years back; they fly great and with no "Spinletto" effects and are a little faster with the lesser parasitic drag.
The following is the reason that I converted them in the first place:
I had a couple of thousand jumps on Stilletos without a spinup until I had one go out of trim. The result was three cutaways in a short period of time. I relined the canopy with Vectran and it has never given me another problem to this day. The rest I converted before they went south with the trim.

The Stiletto is a high performance canopy that was developed when Spectra was the line material mostly used. Since then, better line fibers have come about in the industry with Vectran being one of them.

If more people asked for Vectran line sets, I would bet that PD would at least look in to it!

Blue ones,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[Dazzle 0]

If vectran was so superior then why have they not used it on their newer canopies, I'm thinking the Katana here.

I understand the trim / signs of wear tradeoff. Does anyone know if they investigated it and decided to stick with Spectra.

[masterrigger1 2]

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If vectran was so superior then why have they not used it on their newer canopies, I'm thinking the Katana here.

I understand the trim / signs of wear tradeoff. Does anyone know if they investigated it and decided to stick with Spectra.

The line being used on The Katana is Dynema. This fiber is a foreign equivalent of Spectra. Rumor has it that the shrinkage is not quite as much as Spectra. Personal test shows that it is less, but ever so slight.

I would not call Vectran "superior" but is the best IMHO out there now. We are currently awaiting a new line from CSR as we speak that may well replace the both of them(Spectra-Vectran).
Blue ones,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[skymedic 0]

I have seen two katana's at my DZ and a few vengence's with vectran. I dont like the fact that when the stilleto gets out of trim it starts to spank ya. I have been used to vectran lines for my skydiving career as all I have jumped is icarus products with vectran installed. I would like to stay with that.

thanks for the replys

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[riggerrob 643]

Vectran is "last week's fashion."
It has been replaced by HMA and HMA 2, which are thinner, shrink less and more durable.
To my mind, Vectran is like Kevlar: a material that we played with for a few years, then moved on to more durable materials.

[masterrigger1 2]

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Vectran is "last week's fashion."
It has been replaced by HMA and HMA 2, which are thinner, shrink less and more durable.
To my mind, Vectran is like Kevlar: a material that we played with for a few years, then moved on to more durable materials.

First, if Vectran is "last week's fashion" then that would make Spectra "last Year's fashion"would it not?

Second,I know what HMA is as Technora is made from a HMA type fiber, but what is a HMA2 fiber... never heard of it......

A line made from a HMA type fiber can be either larger or smaller depending as to how it is spin and braided.
The more durable part is also dependant upon the process of manufacture. Not all HMA type fibers are the same. It is a lot like the difference in Spectra 900 and Spectra 1000. The later fiber is what we use for Spectra lines on parachutes.

LCP (Vectran) and HMA (Technora) fibers do not shrink with use but they will elongate to some extent.
Sport canopies will see about 1/2 inch in some areas while Tandems will see up to 1 inch of change.

To take this thread back to it's original intent, there are better line materials(pick one) to place on HP canopies instead of Spectra. A Stiletto is just one of many canopies out there that maybe should change up to something different.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[arlo 0]

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I dont like the fact that when the stilleto gets out of trim it starts to spank ya.

then don't allow it to get out of trim...

[hookitt 1]

>>Why do you want a Vectran Lineset? The Stiletto has no need for one.<<

I disagree that Spectra is the best option. When my stiletto was out of trim, it's flight and opening characteristics were rather um... shall I say...spectacular! That's not to imply it was good in any way.

After a reline, it flew and opened great. I've seen a few Vectran lined stilettos jumped by sponsored athletes during the testing phase of the line.

When I asked PD to reline mine with Vectran, they said no. The only info given at the time was, there are good and bad qualities of the line. I was unable to get specifics so Spectra it was.

The Stiletto has been test jumped with Vectran quite thoroughly. Personally I have nothing against vectran but if I were to jump a canopy with Vectrran, I'd replace the brakelines with 400 pound Dacron like Precision does.

The Stiletto is an incredible parachute but damn, it sucks when it's out of trim in only 400 jumps. I, along with most skydivers, tend to use a lineset for much longer than 400 jumps.

PD uses non coated Spectra on their reserves for no real good reason as far as I can tell. It would stand to reason that no real good reason is given that spectra is the only choice for Stilettos.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[diablopilot 2]

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The Stiletto is an incredible parachute but damn, it sucks when it's out of trim in only 400 jumps. I, along with most skydivers, tend to use a lineset for much longer than 400 jumps.

And that is a very good reason to not use Vectran.

With Spectra, when the lineset is nearing the end of it's useful life there are noticable changes in the canopy prompting the user to replace the lineset for performance issues, long befor a line breaks. (400 to 600 jumps)

With Vectran there is no such change yet the product also has a similarly limited useful life, often luling users into continuing to jump a lineset that has moved well beyond it's safe and useful lifespan. (400 to 600 jumps)

TitaniumLegs can probably shed some more insight on the properties of Vectran.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hookitt 1]

Titaniumlegs incident is the very reason I'd change the brakelines to 400lb dacron.

I was waiting for you to come back with the 400 to 600 jumps comment. Most skydivers, including the ones that have Vectran, do not change lines as recommended.

What should be done, does not coincide with reality.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[diablopilot 2]

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What should be done, does not coincide with reality.

Don't I know it. Then they complain about the cost. Or continue to jump them when they shouldn't and get injured.

I've figured out my answer to changing linsets as I imagine you have, but if a manufacture does not wish to use a specific line type, or does not approve of it, it's their perogative.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hookitt 1]

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...if a manufacture does not wish to use a specific line type, or does not approve of it, it's their perogative.

Now that I agree with. But I will not imply it's their wisdom.

Injuries from over using a product certainly does suck eh?...Don't answer that.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[masterrigger1 2]

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The Stiletto is an incredible parachute but damn, it sucks when it's out of trim in only 400 jumps. I, along with most skydivers, tend to use a lineset for much longer than 400 jumps.

And that is a very good reason to not use Vectran.

With Spectra, when the lineset is nearing the end of it's useful life there are noticable changes in the canopy prompting the user to replace the lineset for performance issues, long befor a line breaks. (400 to 600 jumps)

With Vectran there is no such change yet the product also has a similarly limited useful life, often luling users into continuing to jump a lineset that has moved well beyond it's safe and useful lifespan. (400 to 600 jumps)

TitaniumLegs can probably shed some more insight on the properties of Vectran.

JP,
I reline around a 1000 canopies a year. Out of that, I see about 6-8 canopies a year with broken lines on them.
I understand that you and a handful of people out there do not like Vectran , but the numbers prove different to your cries. It is a decent line medium that shows wear before it breaks! So yes it does have a change in properties that are noticable to the end user.
See ya soon,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[diablopilot 2]

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is a decent line medium that shows wear before it breaks!

Agreed, and I wasn't quite clear in my latest post. It does show wear, IF you look for it, and know what to look for.

The unfortunate reality, I'm pretty sure you'll agree with, it that many jumpers don't give two snots about their gear. There are even jumpers these days that have less than 100 pack jobs yet have 1000's of jumps.

Spectra in these people case has the advantage of producing a noticble result when it reaches the end of it's life that even someone who doesn't pack will notice.

Vectran doesn't. Vectran is good, IF the user is willing to take an interest in their gear. It why I think it's a good idea for the Velocity, and a bad one for the Stiletto. Stiletto jumpers range from new to old, current, and those that have closet queen rigs that pop out twice a year. Spectra is the right choice IMO for those rigs. Velocity owners tend to be more current and *usually* have more of an interest in the state of their gear.

I guess it boils down to numbers. How many jumpers are hurt or injured every year choping a spun up malfunction, and how manu suffer the same from a boken line.


IMO it was a bad idea to remove the option of line type on some of Icarus's products a couple of years ago.

BTW VEctran has/had a nitch use IMO. I think there are products destined to replace it and even perhapse Spectra. I kind of agree with riggerrob that it's gonna be "last weeks news" shortly.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[icevideot 0]

Can I get an HMA lineset for my Stiletto 97 from PD yet? I mean they no longer use Spectra on Katanas.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[masterrigger1 2]

Robin,
We can help you if needed.

PM sent also.

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[Spizzzarko 0]

Here is my diatribe about lines:

I feel that the lineset is probably the most important part of a canopy that is the most over looked when it comes to maintaining that canopy. The fact of the matter is, most people pay to little attention to their lines and replace them when they break. A little bit of proactive inspections on your lineset while packing can help you determine if your lines are wearing out.

There are several types of materials that lines can be made out of, and each jumper MUST take a little time and learn about these materials before deciding what to purchase. Each material has some pro's and con's, so it is up to each of you to make an educated decision on your own.

I don't really like the idea that PD will only sell a certain line for a certain canopy. Don't get me wrong... PD makes great products and has great service, but there are more factors to consider when choosing lines. I'm sure PD is just covering themselves as much as possible from a liability standpoint and you cannot fault them for that.

As far as being a test jumper... Come on now. If you get down to it, we are all test jumpers. Do you know any major manufacturer that will warranty their product against malfunctions? Some times shit happens, so you deal with it. We all know the risks we take when we pay our $22.00 and skyjump, so the argument of being a test jumper just because you changed your lineset to a different material is null and void.

I have dealt with Mel at Skyworks before. He is an upstanding individual who provides a good product and amazing customer service. You should contact him and discuss weather or not what you want to do is a good idea. Mel has a great knowledge base and will not steer you wrong.

Be carefull out there.

[gjhdiver 0]

I have nearly 7000 jumps on spectra lined stilettos. I've never had any issues with them. I usually reline them when the nose profile is obviously out of trim, at around 6-700 jumps.

If you are loading your canopy very highly, then small differences in trim will have larger results in the canopies opening and flying characteristics. I load mine at about 1.8 and they fly fine for a very long time.

I've seen much smaller stilettos that were being highly loaded in the mid 2's to 3's develop interesting behavior when only slightly out of trim. That's not a reflection on the properties of spectra, but more a comment on how much more maintenance needs to be scheduled for a canopy that is intentionally pushed to the limit of it's design. That isn't going to change no matter what lineset is on it.

I've seen people badly bitten by thinking kevlar/vectran/HMA will solve that particular problem. With spectra, you can see your maintenance issue arriving. With vectran, you tend to see it after it arrives. It's a lot easier to replace a line set that looks worn than one that doesn't but is actually past it's replacement date.

I saw old skydivexxl's Velocity literally explode a month ago. That got his attention. Looked just fine when he was packing it.

[icevideot 0]

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I usually reline them when the nose profile is obviously out of trim, at around 6-700 jumps.

In my experience and from what I have heard from more experienced people I trust, this is well beyond the point where openings begin to become faster or less predictable.

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If you are loading your canopy very highly, then small differences in trim will have larger results in the canopies opening and flying characteristics.

I load well beyond 2:1 but less than 2.5:1 depending on the amount of weight I am wearing and I jump with a heavy camera setup. I do shrugs to keep my neck strong but I still don't want to find out it isn't strong enough by breaking my neck. The hardest opening of my life was on a Stiletto 107 that opened nice 4 out of 5 times and snapped a bit on the other ones. At least until the day I videoed my body from the waist down with a top mount camera. I didn't jump for 2 weeks and never actually relax on openings since. I am willing to keep an eye out for wear and tear and even replace the lines on a schedule if that is what it takes. I still say if it is good enough for a Katana it is good enough for my trusty old Stiletto. I would agree with you without the cameras.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[masterrigger1 2]

Gareth,
I hate to disagree with a fellow Bass player, but.....

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I have nearly 7000 jumps on spectra lined stilettos. I've never had any issues with them. I usually reline them when the nose profile is obviously out of trim, at around 6-700 jumps.

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Most other people have had problems with Spectra lined Stilettos. I am one of them.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Stiletto is one fine canopy when it is in trim.

The Stiletto was my main canopy of choice for a long time. I had four of them in fact.

***
If you are loading your canopy very highly, then small differences in trim will have larger results in the canopies opening and flying characteristics.
***
I've seen much smaller stilettos that were being highly loaded in the mid 2's to 3's develop interesting behavior when only slightly out of trim.

Exactly!

That's not a reflection on the properties of spectra, but more a comment on how much more maintenance needs to be scheduled for a canopy that is intentionally pushed to the limit of it's design. That isn't going to change no matter what lineset is on it.

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How can a line material that shrinks and goes out of trim not be a reflection of it's properties?
...Along with the resulting canopy performance loss?

It does change with different line mediums(materials).


I've seen people badly bitten by thinking kevlar/vectran/HMA will solve that particular problem. With spectra, you can see your maintenance issue arriving. With vectran, you tend to see it after it arrives. It's a lot easier to replace a line set that looks worn than one that doesn't but is actually past it's replacement date.

I see a broken Vectran line in my shop MAYBE a couple of times each year.

The smaller 340lb HMA a few more time than that, but they are usually attributed to tension knots.

Spectra needs to be measured to find out where your line set stand in regards to replacement.

Most people do not even have a clue how or where to measure them, so they never do!
That makes Spectra harder to determine when to replace them.

Here is my recommended max number of jumps per line material:

Spectra 725 (PD calls it 825) 550-700 jumps

Vectran 580 - 600-800 jumps 12 Carrier Braid

Vectran 600 - 400-500 jumps 16 Carrier Braid
(The type PD Uses)

HMA 340 UV Coated 700 - 800 Jumps

HMA 840 UV Coated 800-1000 Jumps
(You will be seeing a lot of this line on canopies in the future. It is the same size as the 580 Vectran, only stronger.)

***
I saw old skydivexxl's Velocity literally explode a month ago. That got his attention. Looked just fine when he was packing it.

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I am willing to bet that it had more than jumps on it than I quoted above!



BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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[gjhdiver 0]

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Gareth,
I hate to disagree with a fellow Bass player, but.....

Actually, I think we're in agreement from reading your reply.

Part of the problem may be that so few people log any more. I still log every jump longhand in a logbook, and know exactly how many jumps I have on each canopy. Most people I jump with have no idea of how many jumps they or their equipment have on it. I think that's where spectra may have the upper hand. It actually has the good manner to look worn out when it is