chaoskitty 0 #1 July 6, 2004 I've been working with a packer to help me alleviate some line twist issues. I jump an Infinity container, and a nitron 150 with microlines and mini risers. Yesterday, we decided to try packing my d-bag with the lines stowed at the top instead of the bottom. It seems that the way the infinity is made, I was having to control the lines while closing the container when packing the d-bag with the lines at the bottom. The only person I've ever seen stowing lines at the top is this particular packer, who packs her boyfriend's WINGS this way. We packed mine twice yesterday with the lines at the top and I did not have line twists. I would like to know if there are any resons I should NOT pack with the lines at the top? It seems to work OK so far, hopefully I did not just get lucky with those 2 pack jobs. I also psyco-pack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 July 6, 2004 QuoteI would like to know if there are any resons I should NOT pack with the lines at the top? Because (unless KellyF says different) it's not the way the book says to do it. What size container? Are they the original factory length risers? How much slack line are you leaving between your last stow and the ends of the risers? What size stow bands are you using and how are you stowing them? When you get linetwists are they above or below the slider? Is the canopy usualy on heading or diving when you get line twists. I've got about 1800 jumps on Infinities (just ordered my 3rd), a whole lot of them with HMA lined canopies (like the Nitron) and have never had a problem with gear induced line twists. QuoteI also psyco-pack. Eeeek. Just noticed this I never had a whole lot of success with the psycho pack. Also noticed your profile. First eliptical? Check that you're flying the openings symetricaly. When you open and look up at the canopy sniveling is it twisted already or do you "fly" into the twists as it's opening?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #3 July 6, 2004 I would suggest that any rig is packed the way the manufacturer designed the rig to be closed. If you are having a constant problem with line twist you may want to look at your body position at pull time. It could also be unwanted hip input at deployment time. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #4 July 6, 2004 Most packing manuals recommend packing with lines towards the bottom/BOC. Some packing manuals allow packing with lines in the pack tray (i.e. smaller Wings). Very few packing manuals (i.e. some Centarus) recommend packing with lines towards the reserve container. The deciding factor is bottom corner configuration. Most bottom corners are sewn closed a few inches to stage main bag lift off. In other words, it is not enough to just pull the pin, most main containers will force the d-bag to hesitate until the pilot chute is definitely pulling. Orienting the d-bag opposite to the manufacturer's recommendations may substantially increase the amount of pilot chute drag required to lift the d-bag = frowned upon. I am not sure of the subtler points of Infinity main corner sewing, so you really should consult Kelly Farrington at Velocity Sports. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #5 July 6, 2004 QuoteQuoteI would like to know if there are any resons I should NOT pack with the lines at the top? QuoteBecause (unless KellyF says different) it's not the way the book says to do it. Ok. I bought this container used and it did not come with a book. QuoteWhat size container? I believe it is an I-44. QuoteAre they the original factory length risers? No, I had to get shorter risers so I could reach the slider to collapse it. QuoteHow much slack line are you leaving between your last stow and the ends of the risers? About six inches. QuoteWhat size stow bands are you using and how are you stowing them? Large bands, double stowes. QuoteWhen you get linetwists are they above or below the slider? 80% sure.. below. QuoteIs the canopy usualy on heading or diving when you get line twists. Well I had a bad opening yesterday where it was diving and tossing me around a bit. For a second I thought I had a line over because of the diving. It was fine as soon as I got out of the line twists. However, when I just have a couple of annoying line twists, it does not dive. QuoteI've got about 1800 jumps on Infinities (just ordered my 3rd), a whole lot of them with HMA lined canopies (like the Nitron) and have never had a problem with gear induced line twists. Which is why I'm trying to refine my pack job. I've only had this container and main for a couple of months. QuoteI also psyco-pack. QuoteEeeek. Just noticed this I'never had a whole lot of success with the psycho pack. I've been psycho-packing since about my 50th jump. Most of the people I jump with also psycho pack. I really dont think the line twists are due to the psycho pack, its really not that different than the pro-pack. What I was talking about.. closing the container. The bottom of the container is "soft".. meaning that when I am applying pressure to the flaps, the pressure points are right were the lines are stowed. I often have to tuck the lines back in to the container and keep them under control while closing. This is why I wanted to try stowing the lines at the top. I'm just not convinced that wont cause other problems. QuoteAlso noticed your profile. First eliptical? Yes. Though I put about 20 jumps on demo's before I bought mine and didn't have line twist issues. Quote Check that you're lfying the openings symetricaly. When you open and look up at the canopy sniveling is it twisted already or do you "fly" into the twists as it's opening? The line twists start before I look up. At deployment, I focus on relaxing, and keeping my body square between my shoulders and hips. Thanks for your input, JP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #6 July 6, 2004 Two things jump out at me.... 1. You're using a canopy lined with HMA. Ditch the large bands for smaller microline bands and use single stows. Make sure the stows are symmetrical in length and tension to reduce wobble during the unstowing process. 2. This is the important one. 6" of line between the risers and the last stow is nowhere near long enough. That places the bag still in your burble when the lines start to unstow. Increase the length to 18". Pack the D-bag with lines towards the bottom and simply neatly coil the excess line at the top of the D-bag, on the bottom of the pack tray. Don't worry about having to tuck the lines in because the bottom of your container is "mushy". My Mirage is cut out for BirdMan on the bottom and I've done the same for awhile. I just tuck the stowed lines in, pull the side flaps over, and close it. No problems at all. And don't let anyone give you any grief over psycho-packing an elliptical. edited to address stowing lines to bottom.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #7 July 6, 2004 Quote2. This is the important one. 6" of line between the risers and the last stow is nowhere near long enough. That places the bag still in your burble when the lines start to unstow. Increase the length to 18". That was what jumped in my face when I read her reply....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #8 July 6, 2004 And always be careful of accepting advise for relatively inexperienced "experts". SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KellyF 16 #9 July 6, 2004 Everyone has pretty much covered all the vital points, esp. leaving about 18" of unstowed line between the last stow and the risers. When you place the bagged main canopy in the container, place the line stows in the container first, then rotate the bag so that the top is against the bottom of the reserve container. This should help keep your lines from sneaking out of the corners while your closing your container (which I believe is unrelated to line twists). PM me your mailing address and I'll get an owners manual out to you ASAP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #10 July 6, 2004 QuoteNo, I had to get shorter risers so I could reach the slider to collapse it. Make sure you are not having the risers hang up on the botom corner of the container, to ensure this you'll need to, QuoteAbout six inches. Make sure you're leaving a lot more slack line. 18 to 24 inches is just about right. When you place the bag in the container just S fold or coil the slack in the botom of the pack tray. QuoteLarge bands, double stowes. These are just fine. I've had success with them. The number of questions I asked were in an effort to diagnose your problem. My suspicsion is that the short amount of slack you're leaving is allowing one riser to hang up on the bottom of the reserve tray, probably the riser opposite your last stow. This is bad for 2 reasons. 1) Line twists. 2) A severe enough opening, or a premature could rip your reserve container from the harness, not a pretty repair. Leave more slack. at least 18 inches, not more that 24. I think you'll see maked improvement. Oh yeah, pack lines to the bottom. The reason you might seen improvement with the alternate packing method is you were giving the risers a bit more slack. Not the right way to fix it though. Enjoy the canopy! It's a nice one!---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chaoskitty 0 #11 July 6, 2004 Thanks for the advice, everyone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites srg 0 #12 July 11, 2004 Kristi, Just to confirm what others have said, if I don't leave at least 18 inches of line between my last stow and my risers I get horrible off-heading openings and sometimes line twists, and I jump a Spectre which is particularly known for not doing that. I now try to leave 24 to 30", but my container is an I-66, and I have these giant dacron CRW lines, so I suspect that 18 to 24" would be perfect for your rig. I wouldn't recommend packing your rig with the bridle at the bottom. When your pilot chute reaches bridle-stretch it needs to pivot the d-bag out of the container. With the bridle at the top the entire container can flex slightly to release the d-bag (try lifting your container by flap number 2 to see this in action) but with the bridle at the bottom the force wants to make the container tighten even more, so you risk a pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction. I know the problem you're having with lines poking out of the bottom flap. With my giant dacron lines the problem is quite pronounced. What I do to combat this is rotate the d-bag until it's about 30 degrees short of flat (so the lines are still mostly below the lip of the bottom flap) then lift my container by flap number 2, align the top of my d-bag with the bottom of my reserve tray, then lower the reserve tray and d-bag together while mashing the bottom of the d-bag with my knees. I then quickly thread my pullup through flap 2 (if I haven't done this already), pull flaps 1 and 2 together, and poke the lines that have managed to pop up in spite of my best efforts back into place before continuing with flaps 3 and 4. With practice it works pretty well, and my canopy is a very tight fit in this size container. With your smaller canopy and microlines I bet it would work quite well. You can also try making the line stows progressively shorter as you march down the top of your d-bag, so the last one above the risers doesn't stick past the rubber bands (or tube stoes) very far. It's mostly that last group that's trying to sneak out of your container as you close it. Best of luck, Spencer "Be braver -- you can't cross a chasm in two small jumps." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Kris 0 #6 July 6, 2004 Two things jump out at me.... 1. You're using a canopy lined with HMA. Ditch the large bands for smaller microline bands and use single stows. Make sure the stows are symmetrical in length and tension to reduce wobble during the unstowing process. 2. This is the important one. 6" of line between the risers and the last stow is nowhere near long enough. That places the bag still in your burble when the lines start to unstow. Increase the length to 18". Pack the D-bag with lines towards the bottom and simply neatly coil the excess line at the top of the D-bag, on the bottom of the pack tray. Don't worry about having to tuck the lines in because the bottom of your container is "mushy". My Mirage is cut out for BirdMan on the bottom and I've done the same for awhile. I just tuck the stowed lines in, pull the side flaps over, and close it. No problems at all. And don't let anyone give you any grief over psycho-packing an elliptical. edited to address stowing lines to bottom.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #7 July 6, 2004 Quote2. This is the important one. 6" of line between the risers and the last stow is nowhere near long enough. That places the bag still in your burble when the lines start to unstow. Increase the length to 18". That was what jumped in my face when I read her reply....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #8 July 6, 2004 And always be careful of accepting advise for relatively inexperienced "experts". SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #9 July 6, 2004 Everyone has pretty much covered all the vital points, esp. leaving about 18" of unstowed line between the last stow and the risers. When you place the bagged main canopy in the container, place the line stows in the container first, then rotate the bag so that the top is against the bottom of the reserve container. This should help keep your lines from sneaking out of the corners while your closing your container (which I believe is unrelated to line twists). PM me your mailing address and I'll get an owners manual out to you ASAP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #10 July 6, 2004 QuoteNo, I had to get shorter risers so I could reach the slider to collapse it. Make sure you are not having the risers hang up on the botom corner of the container, to ensure this you'll need to, QuoteAbout six inches. Make sure you're leaving a lot more slack line. 18 to 24 inches is just about right. When you place the bag in the container just S fold or coil the slack in the botom of the pack tray. QuoteLarge bands, double stowes. These are just fine. I've had success with them. The number of questions I asked were in an effort to diagnose your problem. My suspicsion is that the short amount of slack you're leaving is allowing one riser to hang up on the bottom of the reserve tray, probably the riser opposite your last stow. This is bad for 2 reasons. 1) Line twists. 2) A severe enough opening, or a premature could rip your reserve container from the harness, not a pretty repair. Leave more slack. at least 18 inches, not more that 24. I think you'll see maked improvement. Oh yeah, pack lines to the bottom. The reason you might seen improvement with the alternate packing method is you were giving the risers a bit more slack. Not the right way to fix it though. Enjoy the canopy! It's a nice one!---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chaoskitty 0 #11 July 6, 2004 Thanks for the advice, everyone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites srg 0 #12 July 11, 2004 Kristi, Just to confirm what others have said, if I don't leave at least 18 inches of line between my last stow and my risers I get horrible off-heading openings and sometimes line twists, and I jump a Spectre which is particularly known for not doing that. I now try to leave 24 to 30", but my container is an I-66, and I have these giant dacron CRW lines, so I suspect that 18 to 24" would be perfect for your rig. I wouldn't recommend packing your rig with the bridle at the bottom. When your pilot chute reaches bridle-stretch it needs to pivot the d-bag out of the container. With the bridle at the top the entire container can flex slightly to release the d-bag (try lifting your container by flap number 2 to see this in action) but with the bridle at the bottom the force wants to make the container tighten even more, so you risk a pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction. I know the problem you're having with lines poking out of the bottom flap. With my giant dacron lines the problem is quite pronounced. What I do to combat this is rotate the d-bag until it's about 30 degrees short of flat (so the lines are still mostly below the lip of the bottom flap) then lift my container by flap number 2, align the top of my d-bag with the bottom of my reserve tray, then lower the reserve tray and d-bag together while mashing the bottom of the d-bag with my knees. I then quickly thread my pullup through flap 2 (if I haven't done this already), pull flaps 1 and 2 together, and poke the lines that have managed to pop up in spite of my best efforts back into place before continuing with flaps 3 and 4. With practice it works pretty well, and my canopy is a very tight fit in this size container. With your smaller canopy and microlines I bet it would work quite well. You can also try making the line stows progressively shorter as you march down the top of your d-bag, so the last one above the risers doesn't stick past the rubber bands (or tube stoes) very far. It's mostly that last group that's trying to sneak out of your container as you close it. Best of luck, Spencer "Be braver -- you can't cross a chasm in two small jumps." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
diablopilot 2 #10 July 6, 2004 QuoteNo, I had to get shorter risers so I could reach the slider to collapse it. Make sure you are not having the risers hang up on the botom corner of the container, to ensure this you'll need to, QuoteAbout six inches. Make sure you're leaving a lot more slack line. 18 to 24 inches is just about right. When you place the bag in the container just S fold or coil the slack in the botom of the pack tray. QuoteLarge bands, double stowes. These are just fine. I've had success with them. The number of questions I asked were in an effort to diagnose your problem. My suspicsion is that the short amount of slack you're leaving is allowing one riser to hang up on the bottom of the reserve tray, probably the riser opposite your last stow. This is bad for 2 reasons. 1) Line twists. 2) A severe enough opening, or a premature could rip your reserve container from the harness, not a pretty repair. Leave more slack. at least 18 inches, not more that 24. I think you'll see maked improvement. Oh yeah, pack lines to the bottom. The reason you might seen improvement with the alternate packing method is you were giving the risers a bit more slack. Not the right way to fix it though. Enjoy the canopy! It's a nice one!---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #11 July 6, 2004 Thanks for the advice, everyone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
srg 0 #12 July 11, 2004 Kristi, Just to confirm what others have said, if I don't leave at least 18 inches of line between my last stow and my risers I get horrible off-heading openings and sometimes line twists, and I jump a Spectre which is particularly known for not doing that. I now try to leave 24 to 30", but my container is an I-66, and I have these giant dacron CRW lines, so I suspect that 18 to 24" would be perfect for your rig. I wouldn't recommend packing your rig with the bridle at the bottom. When your pilot chute reaches bridle-stretch it needs to pivot the d-bag out of the container. With the bridle at the top the entire container can flex slightly to release the d-bag (try lifting your container by flap number 2 to see this in action) but with the bridle at the bottom the force wants to make the container tighten even more, so you risk a pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction. I know the problem you're having with lines poking out of the bottom flap. With my giant dacron lines the problem is quite pronounced. What I do to combat this is rotate the d-bag until it's about 30 degrees short of flat (so the lines are still mostly below the lip of the bottom flap) then lift my container by flap number 2, align the top of my d-bag with the bottom of my reserve tray, then lower the reserve tray and d-bag together while mashing the bottom of the d-bag with my knees. I then quickly thread my pullup through flap 2 (if I haven't done this already), pull flaps 1 and 2 together, and poke the lines that have managed to pop up in spite of my best efforts back into place before continuing with flaps 3 and 4. With practice it works pretty well, and my canopy is a very tight fit in this size container. With your smaller canopy and microlines I bet it would work quite well. You can also try making the line stows progressively shorter as you march down the top of your d-bag, so the last one above the risers doesn't stick past the rubber bands (or tube stoes) very far. It's mostly that last group that's trying to sneak out of your container as you close it. Best of luck, Spencer "Be braver -- you can't cross a chasm in two small jumps." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
