Tube Stoes: Real-Word Factual Experiences

[Harksaw 0]

I've been doing a little searching on the forums and I've found plenty of opinions and speculation about using tube stoes, many people (who dont use them) think they are likely to cause a bag lock. I'm looking for real world experiences: Has anyone noticed in personal experience that they have caused bag locks?

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I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[darkwing 5]

rather that worry about small number statistics, I concentrate on a simple issue -- breaking strength. There is a clearly definable failure mode, that of linesfrom adjacent stows looping one another, resulting in a bag lock IF the retaining bands don't break. So having a rubber band with significantly lower breaking strength than a tube stoe is a plus here. I believe this line of logic is what would be referred to as "the conventional thought."

I am curious though if ANY manufacturers recommend tube stoes over rubber bands. I am often surprised (well, not any more really) when people chime in with "I have done such-and-such for 300 jumps without a problem" when the manufacturer clearly recommends otherwise. One example is what to use to clean and lube cutaway cables. Individual success stories are the same thing that sell penis enlargement products on TV, and they don't work (OK wise guys, I can't say they don't work based on personal experience).

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Harksaw 0]

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There is a clearly definable failure mode, that of lines from adjacent stows looping one another, resulting in a bag lock IF the retaining bands don't break.

Wouldn't the solution to this be to make your line stows short enough that they won't loop over each other?

Also, to clarify, I'm not looking for individual success stories, rather, individual failure stories.

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I used tube stows on my personall rigs my entire career. No bag locks from tube stows. My only bag lock was on a tandem, that someone else packed, because they double-wrapped the rubber bands (wasn't the locking stows either).

I laugh that people blame line dump and bag locks on tube stows, they hold too well and not well enough at the same time.

Derek

[slotperfect 7]

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Individual success stories are the same thing that sell penis enlargement products on TV, and they don't work (OK wise guys, I can't say they don't work based on personal experience).

Dude, that comment made my day! ROFLMAO!

My only issue with tube stoes, which I have posted before (the stow band conversation is one of the dead horses here in the forums), is that they don't provide as much friction as rubber bands during deployment. The deployment needs to be effectively staged, step-by-step during the packing process to allow the jumper to decelerate enough for the opening to be comfortable.

Arrive Safely

John

[Hooknswoop 19]

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they don't provide as much friction as rubber bands during deployment. The deployment needs to be effectively staged, step-by-step during the packing process to allow the jumper to decelerate enough for the opening to be comfortable.

Then how do explain the new 'stow-less' bags?

How do explain people free-stowing their lines, except for the locking stows, and getting good openings?

How do you explain how I was getting normal openings out of a Stiletto 97 with a reserve free-bag?

Derek

[mjosparky 4]

John,
I have been jumping a "D" bag, that I make, for several years that only has two locking stows and the remain line is stowed in a pocket. I use tube stows for that. I have no problem with clean, staged deployment. The pocket does a great job of staging the lines. It is similar to a reserve free bag only square.

I have yet to see a stow band cause a bag lock. A stow band will not take the forces produced during deployment. For a bag lock to occur you must have line/lines or the bridle wrap up on something. If your PC does not have enough drag to brake a stow band, you had better get a new one.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[slotperfect 7]

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Then how do explain the new 'stow-less' bags?

I don't know a thing about them . . . howsabout posting a link so I can go educate myself??

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How do explain people free-stowing their lines, except for the locking stows, and getting good openings?

I knew a lot of people that free stowed their lines like that. Of course that was on older 7-cell F-111 canopied like XL Clouds. I don't see anyone doing it anymore . . . maybe I just need to get out more!?!? My guess would be that the canopies that are being packed that way have opening characteristics that are very tolerant of different packing methods.

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How do you explain how I was getting normal openings out of a Stiletto 97 with a reserve free-bag?

How were you packing it? Were you using the standard pack job recommended by PD for the Stiletto? If so, the Stiletto falls into that category of canopies that are very tolerant as I mentioned above.

BTW - I don't intend to match rigging wits with you . . . I love to learn new stuff, and do change my stance on things (like the stow band issue) when I gain new and better information.

My personal experience with tube stoes: my work canopy is a Silhouette 210. It came originally with dacron lines. I flat packed it (a straight stack-pack) and used tube stoes and had comfy openings. I had it relined by PD with 825lb spectra, and it opened a bit harder. I switched from tube stoes to rubber bands and openings went back to comfy again.

Arrive Safely

John

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I have yet to see a stow band cause a bag lock

I had it happen to me on a tandem. Double-wrapped rubber band.

Derek

[AggieDave 6]

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I had it relined by PD with 825lb spectra, and it opened a bit harder. I switched from tube stoes to rubber bands and openings went back to comfy again.

Were you using the same sized tube stows, if you were, then they were probably the wrong size for the new lines.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I don't know a thing about them . . . howsabout posting a link so I can go educate myself??

I don't have a link, ut a search should reveal a lot of info about them. Basically they use a pouch for the majority of the lines and a system that doesn't use rubber bands to keep the bag closed until line stretch.

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I knew a lot of people that free stowed their lines like that. Of course that was on older 7-cell F-111 canopied like XL Clouds. I don't see anyone doing it anymore . . . maybe I just need to get out more!?!? Crazy My guess would be that the canopies that are being packed that way have opening characteristics that are very tolerant of different packing methods.

Doesn't seem to matter what canopy is used. I think if it affected the openings, then the canopy could be defined as intolerant of packing methods.

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How were you packing it? Were you using the standard pack job recommended by PD for the Stiletto? If so, the Stiletto falls into that category of canopies that are very tolerant as I mentioned above.

Nope, packed it like a reserve so it would fit into the molar bag easier.

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BTW - I don't intend to match rigging wits with you . . . I love to learn new stuff, and do change my stance on things (like the stow band issue) when I gain new and better information.

I just thought that your statement that the deployment must be staged is incorrect, as the different packing styles and d-bags prove that to not be the case. Hookitt here on DZ.com only stows the locking stows on his canopy as do other people.

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My personal experience with tube stoes: my work canopy is a Silhouette 210. It came originally with dacron lines. I flat packed it (a straight stack-pack) and used tube stoes and had comfy openings. I had it relined by PD with 825lb spectra, and it opened a bit harder. I switched from tube stoes to rubber bands and openings went back to comfy again.

Could it be that the opening change had to do more with the lines than the stows? Dacron is much heavier that micro-line and if you used the same PC, it would de-accelerate the canopy more during the deployment, which should increase the snatch force. After that, the opening should be identical, except that the micro-line would transmit more force to you.

Derek

[slotperfect 7]

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Were you using the same sized tube stows, if you were, then they were probably the wrong size for the new lines.

Nope . . . I used microline tube stoes. Thanks for the catch - I should have made that clear.

Arrive Safely

John

[piisfish 140]

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Then how do explain the new 'stow-less' bags?

I don't know a thing about them . . . howsabout posting a link so I can go educate myself??

a little search in the french forum (Yes Remi, I know, what is in the french forum remains in the french forum, but it's for an educational matter...)
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1078349;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Brains 2]

Derek, did you happen to get a look at the berger bag (sp?) that some of the airspeed guys were testing for Sunpath? It looks exactly like the pics that pisfish posted the link to. Likely it is the same product or version of it anyway. Looked like a neat system, didn't get to ask how they liked it or any complications with it. But it is being used.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Derek, did you happen to get a look at the berger bag (sp?) that some of the airspeed guys were testing for Sunpath? It looks exactly like the pics that pisfish posted the link to. Likely it is the same product or version of it anyway. Looked like a neat system, didn't get to ask how they liked it or any complications with it. But it is being used.

I've seen them. I think it is a great idea and helps to disprove the "must have tight line stows" and "line dump=hard opening" theories.

Derek

[sundevil777 102]

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There is a clearly definable failure mode, that of linesfrom adjacent stows looping one another, resulting in a bag lock IF the retaining bands don't break. So having a rubber band with significantly lower breaking strength than a tube stoe is a plus here.

Having a locking stow with signiicantly lower breaking strength means that you face a much greater potential of having a locking stow band break while it is in your container, or during deployment while the bag is just lifting off your back.

How many of you have used or seen locking stows (rubber) that have already started to split? It can be tough to use a rubber stow once without splitting for the first 2 locking stows. Do you really want to trust these for the critical time where you absolutely do not want them to break?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Squeak 17]

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How many of you have used or seen locking stows (rubber) that have already started to split? It can be tough to use a rubber stow once without splitting for the first 2 locking stows. Do you really want to trust these for the critical time where you absolutely do not want them to break?

Yes

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[sundevil777 102]

Yes, The testing has occurred and the results are.....

The breaking of locking stows at the wrong time sucks!

No wonder reserves have evolved away from natural bands.

Ever find a middle locking stow broken before you use it while packing? Did it break as the lines got tension, or some time before?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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I have yet to see a stow band cause a bag lock.

I packed one for myself. Regular rubberband, double-wrapped locking stow. It did break, yes, eventually. Unfortunately by that time the spinning D-bag had twisted my lines into a very choppable mess.

I've never had any trouble with tube stoes in the 400 jumps that I've been using them.

[AggieDave 6]

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Regular rubberband, double-wrapped locking stow.

I cringe when I see that, sure folks have done it for years, but IMHO you're just asking to get lines caught up. If you get the "lucky" band that nice and strong, that doesn't break, then there you are a bag lock.

Atleast you can cut-away from a bag lock, you may not be able to cut away from a bag-strip opening. You may be too hurt to actually do it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[riggerrob 643]

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Regular rubberband, double-wrapped locking stow.

I cringe when I see that, sure folks have done it for years, but IMHO you're just asking to get lines caught up. If you get the "lucky" band that nice and strong, that doesn't break, then there you are a bag lock.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

We have been doing that for decades on Strong Tandems with Dacron, Spectra and Vectran lines. I have only suffered one bag lock in that period.
During that same period, I experienced many openings hard enough to break lines and shred main canopies. I suspect that a few of those hard openings started with line dump.

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[ernokaikkonen 0]

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I cringe when I see that

Well, so do I. I had been told not to do it. The rubberband was too loose and I was too lazy to replace it. "It'll be fine", I thought.

I haven't been double-wrapping locking stows anymore and I don't recommend it to anyone else either.

[AggieDave 6]

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I suspect that a few of those hard openings started with line dump.

Line dump or bag strip?

Tandems are a whole different animal (as you know). Due to the weight of the canopy withthe bag trying to accelerate off of it, bag strip can happen very easily.

RWS has done research into this and that is why they strongely recommend using tube stows as the locking stows on their tandems. In their research they found that the bag tryed to accelerate away from the canopy packed inside of it, putting extreme stress on the locking stows. Line dumps weren't truely happening, bag strip was happening, where the canopy is out of the bag before line stretch is achieved. You can imagine what happens after that.

So, I should have quantified what I was stating. Double-wrapping rubberbands on a modern sport rig with micro lines is asking for a bag lock.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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We have been doing that for decades on Strong Tandems with Dacron, Spectra and Vectran lines. I have only suffered one bag lock in that period.
During that same period, I experienced many openings hard enough to break lines and shred main canopies. I suspect that a few of those hard openings started with line dump.

So the double-stowed rubber bads created a bag lock when they didn't break and brutally hard openings when they did?

Also, line dump does not create hard openings, bag strip does.

I would rather have a bag lock from a tube stow not breraking and, for whatever reason, the lines not coming out of it, than having abrutally hard opening that may injure me, destroy the main, and cause a reserve ride anyway.

Derek

[riddler 0]

Not quite a personal experience, but one of my rigs was purchased from a jumper that made one reserve ride on it. He has just replaced his main rubber bands with tube stows, and he had a bag lock on the subsequent jump.

It's possible that the tube stows were improperly installed (although I don't know how you can install them improperly to cause a bag-lock).

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