french rig allowed in the states?

[frenchcloud 0]

i wonder if i can come with my rig from france and fly it there. i don t think 'advance' rigs from parafun (france) are present in the states. do i risk to forbidden to jump it...?
another question some people might be able to answer:
am i allowed to travel to america with my rig in my luggage?
thanks for helping

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The tongue is NOT only a tool for speech!

[councilman24 37]

From our regulations,

"Sec. 105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment


(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft with an unapproved foreign parachute system unless--


(1) The parachute system is worn by a foreign parachutist who is the owner of that system.

(2) The parachute system is of a single-harness dual parachute type.

(3) The parachute system meets the civil aviation authority requirements of the foreign parachutist's country.

(4) All foreign non-approved parachutes deployed
by a foreign parachutist during a parachute operation conducted under this section shall be packed as follows--


(i) The main parachute must be packed by the foreign parachutist making the next parachute jump with that parachute, a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the Administrator.

(ii) The reserve parachute must be packed in accordance with the foreign parachutist's civil aviation authority requirements, by a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the Administrator."

Yes you can use your rig here as long as it's legal in your home country.

Go to http://uspa.org/membership/travel/rigs.htm#tsa
for information on flying with your rig. Yes it's allowed and usually easy. But they may open your main and or reserve if it's deemed necessary.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[frenchcloud 0]

thanks so much for such a clear and quick answer.

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The tongue is NOT only a tool for speech!

[speedy 0]

Quote

(ii) The reserve parachute must be packed in accordance with the foreign parachutist's civil aviation authority requirements, by a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the Administrator."

Does this mean that if I jump in America with my German rig, where the reserve repack cycle is a full year, I do not need to meet the 120 day repack cycle requirements of the U.S?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[skydiver30960 0]

That's the way I read it... as long as it is "up to speed" according to the rules set forth by your governing body (the German versions of the FAA and/or USPA, sorry for my ignorance) and you are the only person jumping the rig (no letting americans borrow your gear) then you should be fine.

One thought is that if you DO come to the States to jump, try to bring documentation showing that the repack cycle is one year in Germany. Larger Florida and California DZ's that are used to having lots of overseas visitors won't give you much trouble, but if you drop into a smaller Stateside DZ that doesn't see many out-of-country visitors then you might have a little convincing to do...

Later

Elvisio "hope for the best, plan for the worst" Rodriguez

[mr2mk1g 10]

If either the reserve or the container carry a US TSO then yes - 120 days and a US rigger must have packed it.

If both are not TSO'ed then whatever your local regulations are apply.

In practice DZ's you will not have a problem with the USPA rigger requirement (I don't believe the realise that is the letter of the rule) and DZ's openly turn a blind eye to the 120 requirement - at least up to 160 days as we have in the UK and in Canada. I can't say they would be willing to bend the rules quite so far as a whole year though.

[speedy 0]

It does state quite clear on my data card for the reserve in both English and German when the date of the next repack is due. This can be anything up to a year. This is sign and stamped by a qualified rigger in Germany.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[riggerrob 643]

The good news is that your Advance container is perfectly legal to jump in the USA because it is manufactured under a TSO, probably a European JAA TSO now.
Most of Parachutes de France's gear is also made to TSO quality control standards.
The bad news is that you must follow the American TSO repack cycle (120 days).

[mr2mk1g 10]

What needs to be added to the above quote from the FAR is the definition of a "foreign parachutist". This is:

Quote

Foreign parachutist means a parachutist who is neither a U.S. citizen or a resident alien and is participating in parachute operations within the United States using parachute equipment not manufactured in the United States.

So you are only a "foreign" parachutist if you gear is not made in the USA. Now some people have interpreted this as being gear which does not have a US TSO - but that's not quite what it says. So, to correct myself, if neither your reserve or container (and probably arguably the main) are made in the USA then your local rules apply and not US rules.

[speedy 0]

Regarding the last two replies.

All my gear is Parachutes de France apart from my main which is Performance designs.

I am not a resident of the U.S.

So what applies? Surely just because my main is TSO'd does not mean I have to repack a foreign reserve. Or are TSO'd mains more likely to fail?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Regarding the last two replies.

All my gear is Parachutes de France apart from my main which is Performance designs.

I am not a resident of the U.S.

So what applies? Surely just because my main is TSO'd does not mean I have to repack a foreign reserve. Or are TSO'd mains more likely to fail?

If your harness/container or your reserve carry a TSO, you must follow the 120 pack cycle and all other FAA rules, packed by a rigger etc.
Your main is not TSO'ed.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mr2mk1g 10]

Does a PdF reserve and container carry a TSO 23C ? Riggers? If it does your harness is an "approved parachute" and must follow USPA rules.

Why don't you call / e-mail ahead and find out what they are gonna say. DZ rules don't always directly tally with the actual rules At least that way you'll know for sure.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Does a PdF reserve and container carry a TSO 23C ? Riggers? If it does your harness is an "approved parachute" and must follow USPA rules.

Why don't you call / e-mail ahead and find out what they are gonna say. DZ rules don't always directly tally with the actual rules At least that way you'll know for sure.

Is there an echo in here?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[teason 0]

**** If you try out a different main, remember that your 3 rings are made by Parachutes de france and have slightly different sizes than the RWS rings. Play it safe and use only your risers.*******

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[speedy 0]

Quote

If your harness/container or your reserve carry a TSO, you must follow the 120 pack cycle and all other FAA rules, packed by a rigger etc.
Your main is not TSO'ed.

It would be better to say my main and reserve is not TSO'ed in order to saved me a useless canopy damaging repack.
I turn up at a U.S. DZ and they ask what equipment I am jumping. I don't say PdF because that might be TSO'ed, I tell em it's a PaB foreign made container and reserve. Hey presto, my German repack cycle is valid.
PaB = Pull and Bounce

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[tombuch 0]

Quote

All my gear is Parachutes de France apart from my main which is Performance designs.

I am not a resident of the U.S.

So what applies? Surely just because my main is TSO'd does not mean I have to repack a foreign reserve.

According to the regulation you will need an FAA rigger to repack your gear because part of it is TSO'ed. That sounds crazy, but it is the law. You can read a bit more about this regulation in a feature here on dropzone.com at http://www.dropzone.com/news/GearRegulationsforParach.shtml

It would be worth calling the DZ you are visiting and asking them what their specific policy is. Many drop zones do not know about this regulation, or they just ignore it. So, a call or email might save you a repack.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

**** If you try out a different main, remember that your 3 rings are made by Parachutes de france and have slightly different sizes than the RWS rings. Play it safe and use only your risers.*******

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Compatiblity is not an issue with Parachutes de France harness rings. They are the same size as American-made (Rw-7, RW-8, DJ Associates, etc.) mini rings.
There are only three sizes of 3-rings: standard, mini and obscure military.
Standard-sized harness rings are compatible with all popular sport risers (Type 7, 8, 13 and 17 webbing).
Obviously mini harness rings will only accept mini (Type 8 or 17 webbing) sport risers.
As for military RW-9 rings ... they will only accept (Type 7 or 13) military risers. RW-9 rings are so rare that I have only ever seen them on military rigs.

[skydiver30960 0]

Wow, good stuff, I'm learning. You guys even made me do some homework... I don't have the complete FARs at hand but did dig out Poynter's manual cuz it has some parts of the FARs in it.

Can anybody reference the actual section of the FARs that make the point that the rig needs to be maintained to our repack cycle if it carries a TSO, even if it is of foreign manufacture? Thanks!

ALSO: While digging around in the Manual, I found FAR 91.15 that basically says that the pilot in command of an aircraft cannot allow the use of ANY parachute (main, reserve, TSO'd, or not TSO'd) that has not been packed in the past 120 days. No mention of TSO, no mention of domestic or foreign manufacture. FAR 91 relates more to general flight rules than skydiving (FAR 105) so it just may not have bothered to go into as much detail, but it caught my eye...

Elvisio "confused, but in a good way" Rodriguez

[pbla4024 0]

I thought tandem rigs use different type of rings. Is it true?

Fido

[mr2mk1g 10]

You'll find the relevent sections of the FAR in the SIM on line here: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/section9part105.htm

First look at the definitions section:

Quote

Sec. 105.3 Definitions

Approved parachute means a parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a Technical Standard Order (C-23 series)...

Foreign parachutist means a parachutist who is neither a U.S. citizen or a resident alien and is participating in parachute operations within the United States using parachute equipment not manufactured in the United States.

So parachute with a TSO is an "Approved Parachute". A "foreign parachutist" is a foreigner who is using a rig that was not made in the USA. (ie I wouldn't be a "foreing parachutist" even though I'm English as I jump a rig made in the USA).

Next zip down to the bottom to: Sec. 105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment which is quoted in full in an earlier post.

Here it only refers to "unapproved" parachute systems, which according to the definitions is a system without a TSO. Therefore Sec. 105.49 does not apply to gear with a TSO.

If the rig is "approved" (carries a TSO) then it doesnt matter who jumps it or where they are from, you follow US rules which are in Sec. 105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems (ie 120 day repack, packed by certified rigger).

I think FAR105.49 might provide a pilot with the authority to allow the use of parachutes outside of 120 day repack scheduals provided the jumper is a foreign jumper, the rig is a foreign rig and is maintained to whatever their home regs are. Since this section specifically adresses the issue it probably carries more weight than the more general regulation in FAR91.

It is interesting when sections conflict though and the draftsmen don't notice. Millions get spent on such an error when things end up being litigated.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

I thought tandem rigs use different type of rings. Is it true?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Correct.
Both Strong Enterprises and Relative Workshop started with stock RW1 harness rings.
For many years, RWS strapped bent D-rings onto RW1 rings, but recently introduced the slightly stronger RW10 slotted harness rings for their tandems. At arm's length RW1 amd RW10 look the same.
Strong Enterprises welded D-rings onto the bottom of RW1 rings. After a decade or so, Strong Enterprises invested in the dies to forge huge ladder buckles that include both RW10-sized rings and bent D-rings in one piece of steel.
Jump Shack buys its harness rings - for Racer Elite Tandems - directly from SEI.
Meanwhile, Parachutes de France makes their own harness rings that look almost identical to SEI harness rings.

On the tandem riser ring front, no body has sewn RW2 or RW3 rings onto a tandem riser in years. Everyone uses slightly stronger middle and small rings sewn to Type 7 or Type 13 webbing.
Just to make the game more interesting, Parachutes de France builds 4-ring risers for its Atom Tandems.
Heh! Heh!

[frenchcloud 0]

well, i definetly have precise answers for my first question... but is there anything you guys know about bringing a rig along with me from france in my luggage..? i ve heard someone saying that british airways refused rigs in planes! is that true?

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The tongue is NOT only a tool for speech!

[Kerr 0]

Quote

If the rig is "approved" (carries a TSO) then it doesnt matter who jumps it or where they are from, you follow US rules which are in Sec. 105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems (ie 120 day repack, packed by certified rigger).

My understanding is that it's even more specific than that. The rig needs to be packed by a USPA certified rigger. So if you have US kit in the UK that you get packed by a BPA rigger before taking a trip to the US then you could in theory be asked to get it repacked by a USPA rigger.

Of course I've never heard of this happening to anyone and I'd be stunned if any DZ tried to enforce it. Still, letter of the law...

--
Kerr

[Kerr 0]

Are you talking about takign it on as cabin luggage? I've never had a problem with BA, but I just check it in as hold luggage. I've known plenty of people take there rig on as cabin luggage though without a problem.

Things may have changed recently though, as a lot of things have when flying. I've not heard that they now have a specific policy. Give them a ring and find out.

If they don't have a policy either way, you have two opptions: 1, Just try and take it on, don't tell anyone you have it. 2, Get BA to confirm that it is OK for you to have it in the cabin and send you letter to that effect.

I wouldn't trust either check in staff or airport security to know what the policy is. You might run into some officious git that thinks no-one should by carrying a parachute onto a plane and will try and make your life hell.

I frequenty carry my lead as cabin luggage (because Phoenix airport has a wierd process for handeling security alerts on inbound luggage) and one time the security at Gatwick wouln't let me through with it. I'd taken it through the same check half a dozen times before without a problem, but now this guy wasn't having any of it. He actually thought I could use my weight belt as a weapon. Eventualy he called his supervisor over who looked at the belt asked me how much it weighed and then let me take it. The supervisor didn't look too impressed with the original guy.

--
Kerr

[mr2mk1g 10]

That's my understanding of it also - I just couldn't find the section in the FAR that states such. The only thing I found in the 2 minutes yesterday when I wrote the above is in the glossary which states that a "rigger" is someone certified by the FAA... now obviously a BPA rigger is not certified by the FAA.

Quote

Of course I've never heard of this happening to anyone and I'd be stunned if any DZ tried to enforce it. Still, letter of the law...

exactly