Pulling while you're on your back?

[karstimmer 0]

Hi guys,

First post, so I'll introduce myself. I'm Kars, I'm currently an AFF student. For the AFF jumps, we exit at 12,500 ft and pull at 5,500 ft.

I did my level 4 jump last weekend, and lost my balance. I ended up recovering the correct position before I had to pull, but I'm wondering what would have happened if I'd had to pull while I was on my back.
I'm assuming that the lines would have whipped me around when the parachute opened. Is that correct?

Also, what would have happened if I hadn't pulled at all and my AAD had fired off the reserve? As far as I know, it fires the reserve straight out from your back. Does that mean the reserve chute would have wrapped around me?

[councilman24 37]

Ask your instructors.

NEVER rely on you AAD to fire. IF you want to open your reserve DO IT yourself. Forget you have an AAD until your responsible for turning it on and off.

Would you rather hit the ground at terminal velocity than pull on your back?

The most important and only thing you MUST do during a skydive is open a parachute.

The feel good part of the reply?

Reserves are designed to open no matter what your orientation is. All parachutes are more reliable if your stable.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[karstimmer 0]

Oh believe me, at 5,500 I would have pulled no matter what. The AAD part of my question was more a "what if I'm passed out" kind of thing.

[Hellis 0]

I agree with the previous poster about asking your intstructors.
Pulling the main while on your back might work, but there is a big risk that you get entangled in lines.
But that is better than not pulling, every second in freefall eats lots of altitude.
Talk to your instructors.

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Also, what would have happened if I hadn't pulled at all and my AAD had fired off the reserve? As far as I know, it fires the reserve straight out from your back. Does that mean the reserve chute would have wrapped around me?

We had a fatality like that in 2002 at our dropzone.
Dont do it.

[BrianM 1]

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I'm wondering what would have happened if I'd had to pull while I was on my back.
I'm assuming that the lines would have whipped me around when the parachute opened. Is that correct?

If you are on your back, the wind will normally pull the pilot chute around your body; it will extract the reserve from the container and pull it around your body as well. There is a chance that something will snag on your body or your equipment as it goes by. There is also a chance that the reserve could fall out of the container before the pilot chute is able to extract it, and then blow back towards you, which could also result in becoming entangled with the reserve. Odds are good that you will have a perfectly good deployment, though not as good as if you are on your belly.

Lots of people, including me, have deployed reserves while on their back and had good deployments.

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As far as I know, it fires the reserve straight out from your back. Does that mean the reserve chute would have wrapped around me?

If you have an image in your head of a fully deployed canopy suddenly appearing below you, then falling into it - no, that won't happen. An AAD doesn't fire a reserve off your back. Like pulling the ripcord, It simply opens the container (though in a different manner - by cutting the loop instead of pulling the pin). The deployment should be identical either way.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[karstimmer 0]

I will definitely ask my instructors as well :)

Thanks for the replies!

[shropshire 0]

Rule One : land with a canopy out. Failure to observe Rule #1, will ruin your whole day.... and those that know you.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Scrumpot 1]

Why in the world did you just post a "reply":

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I agree with the previous poster about asking your intstructors.

Followed immediately by:

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Pulling the main while on your back might work, but there is a big risk that you get entangled in lines.

-

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[nigel99 586]

  Quote

Hi guys,

First post, so I'll introduce myself. I'm Kars, I'm currently an AFF student. For the AFF jumps, we exit at 12,500 ft and pull at 5,500 ft.

I did my level 4 jump last weekend, and lost my balance. I ended up recovering the correct position before I had to pull, but I'm wondering what would have happened if I'd had to pull while I was on my back.
I'm assuming that the lines would have whipped me around when the parachute opened. Is that correct?

Also, what would have happened if I hadn't pulled at all and my AAD had fired off the reserve? As far as I know, it fires the reserve straight out from your back. Does that mean the reserve chute would have wrapped around me?

As everyone else has said regarding deployment speak to your instructors.

As far as the AAD is concerned - It is not 100% certain that everything will happen in time to save your life in ANY body position. There are alot of threads here providing detailed analysis of AAD's containers and reserves. I suggest you read alot but question it ALL. Pay particular attention to what the riggers and experienced jumpers say (people like riggerpaul, davelepka, popsjumper, ron, billbooth and billvon are all people that I trust). But remember that they are writing on a forum and you could misunderstand the context of what they are saying so always check assumptions with the people who are responsible for training you.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[fencebuster 7]

Remember your pull priorities from the SIM. That is what matters. Review pull priorities with your instructor. I deployed my main after becoming unstable on CAT C-1 right at pull time. Let's just say, my parachute opened, hard, and had to be cut away. I learned alot on that skydive -- the most important point being that I had been well trained by my instructors, handled the EPs, and landed safely on my Reserve. That was 1030 jumps or so ago.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I'm not going to comment on what would happen, but I will post something to consider as I've seen it happen.

Guy at our DZ has a BRAND NEW Mirage G4. He puts 8-9 jumps on it and notices a problem. A corner of the reserve tray is ripped away from the backpad. Gets a rigger to look at it and they determined the following:

The jumper was unstable (on his side), when he deployed on one of those 8-9 jumps. The main riser tried to clear the reserve tray, but the force of the canopy opening caused it to hold onto the reserve tray and rip it away from the container. Luckily, it cleared and his main opened normally. Instead of costing him his life, it cost him a repair bill of several hundred dollars.

Now, consider how much worse that could have been. Instead of slipping around the reserve tray, lets say it had slipped in BEHIND the reserve tray. You've now got your main wrapped around your reserve and neither are, or likely will open.

Deploying while unstable is just taking your odds from pretty good, to very poor. Not saying not to do it, but I'd personally make every effort to deploy stable, unless time/altitude wasn't on my side.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[nigel99 586]

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Deploying while unstable is just taking your odds from pretty good, to very poor. Not saying not to do it, but I'd personally make every effort to deploy stable, unless time/altitude wasn't on my side.

As far as USPA is concerned in section 5.1 of the SIM it is more important to deploy when you are supposed to

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Deploy the parachute.
a. Open the parachute at the correct altitude.
b. A stable, face-to-earth body position improves
opening reliability but is secondary to opening at
the correct altitude.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

For a throw out, assuming you don't wrap the bridle around your arm or something, the pilot chute will pull the bag out, and you will get yanked around to upright. It may or may not be pleasant. I had a premature on my back that was rather painful. Fortunately the pilot chute went straight up my back and didn't snag on anything.

For a spring loaded pilot chute, either main or reserve, the pilot chute will go out, catch air and follow the path of least resistance around you (again assuming it doesn't snag) pull the bag out and you will get yanked around to upright. The path of least resistance is often between your legs. Getting yanked through 3/4 of a backloop during the opening sequence is rather painful and unpleasant. (yes, firsthand knowledge)

Both situations, while not preferrable, certainly beat not pulling at all.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[karma 3]

Hey Kars,

I'm an AFF-instructor at the dropzone you're currently training at. I'm there every weekend. Next time you come to jump, we'll have a talk.

Grtz. Arjen

[karstimmer 0]

Hey there Arjen! Will do! Thanks!

And everyone else, once again thanks for your replies :)

[jrjny 0]

I have less 'knowledge' than most here but I did have one experience.

I did a 3-way dive and we all lost alti awareness (someone was holding my wrist covering my altimeter - really f'n stupid don't do it lol). Jump 30 maybe?

3.5k his audible whistles, he breaks off, 3k goes by I begin to track away. Tracking hard so I go unstable, 2.5k, on my back glimpse at my alti, 2.2k'ish attempting to get on my belly and threw out PC at about 1.9k because in that split second I felt the 500+ft required to get 'stable' would not be worth the too low deployment altitude.

It was a pull priority calculation and all I got was the riser smacking the shit out of me. Under canopy by 1.4k'ish and landed alright. Key thing was I was not upside down but sideways...still not stable nonetheless. Brand new G4 mirage 210 pilot and brand new cypres 2 so I always had 'faith' in my gear whatever that means.

Lesson learned on many fronts.

Jeff

[AndyMan 7]

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Lesson learned on many fronts.

Sounds like you did the right thing! The priorities at pull time are very simple. In order:

1. Pull.
2. Pull at the correct altitude.
3. Pull at the correct altitude, while stable.

Pulling at the correct altitude is more important than stability! Spinning on your back at pull time? It's time to end the skydive, so PULL! Far too many skydivers have put themselves in grave danger by taking time to 'get stable'. If it's pull time? PULL.

If a skydive is already starting to get more interesting than it should be, don't make it worse by opening lower than you should.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[shropshire 0]

Here we go ... we 'all' like sound bites these days ...

"The person MUST end the skydive, before the skydive ends the Person!"

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[deltron80 0]

skydiving is very dangerous. you will probably break something and you might die, but it is totally worth it! deploying a parachute is an important part of any dive flow. if you are unconcious then you won't even be scared when you die so don't worry about getting tangled in your reserve!

[deltron80 0]

  Quote

I'm not going to comment on what would happen, but I will post something to consider as I've seen it happen.

Guy at our DZ has a BRAND NEW Mirage G4. He puts 8-9 jumps on it and notices a problem. A corner of the reserve tray is ripped away from the backpad. Gets a rigger to look at it and they determined the following:

The jumper was unstable (on his side), when he deployed on one of those 8-9 jumps. The main riser tried to clear the reserve tray, but the force of the canopy opening caused it to hold onto the reserve tray and rip it away from the container. Luckily, it cleared and his main opened normally. Instead of costing him his life, it cost him a repair bill of several hundred dollars.

Now, consider how much worse that could have been. Instead of slipping around the reserve tray, lets say it had slipped in BEHIND the reserve tray. You've now got your main wrapped around your reserve and neither are, or likely will open.

Deploying while unstable is just taking your odds from pretty good, to very poor. Not saying not to do it, but I'd personally make every effort to deploy stable, unless time/altitude wasn't on my side.

WTF?? This story scares me a great deal :(

[indyz 1]

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Deploying while unstable is just taking your odds from pretty good, to very poor.

B-b-b-b-b-b-bullshit. Ask any experienced static line instructor, unstable deployments from first-freefall students are not exactly uncommon and they usually work out just fine.

Also, please, please, please carefully consider your audience when you say things like "I'd personally make every effort to deploy stable, unless time/altitude wasn't on my side." For experienced jumpers, trading 1000 feet for a stable pull might be an acceptable choice. For a student, like the person who started this thread, pull time is pull time, regardless of orientation.

[patworks 5]

Pulling on your back, pulling in ANY position is better than a low or no pull. I have many, many jumps in odd positions. (I like to experiment.) For Me, Pulling on my back gives me a crisp (hard) opening. I've had the bag hit my legs. ... once, unstowing lines wacked my legs. So, I wouldn't do it today unless i was low.

FYI: Pulling on your side HURTS!. A lot.

Whatever, if you freefly, slow down. Pulling in a 'fast' position (for example, headdown) will likely break your parachute and cause pain. Expect to break lines and blow panels. But hey, You may see stars!

Whatever, ALWAYS pull before landing. Listen to your experienced, wise, instructor(s). ... people who have earned respect from their peers. Complie what they say. Do it.

Remember to enjoy the sky as you fly!

Pat Works nee Madden Travis Works, Jr .B1575, C1798, D1813, Star Crest Solo#1, USPA#189,

[patworks 5]

[Reply]unstable deployments from first-freefall students are not exactly uncommon and they usually work out just fine. ..... For a student, like the person who started this thread, pull time is pull time, regardless of orientation.

[patworks 5]

With due respect, Chris-Ottawa is not qualified to make such statements. Outlandish! Peace!

Pat Works nee Madden Travis Works, Jr .B1575, C1798, D1813, Star Crest Solo#1, USPA#189,

[irishrigger 32]

3 important points as mentioned before
1. pull
2.pull at correct height
3.pull stable.

i know it can be dounting at the start,but if you stay nice relaxed,alti aware,keep your arch and have a nice smooth pull you taking so many bad things out of the equation.
have a chat with your instructor and he will look after you.

rodger