Pull our or BOC?

[billbooth 10]

Here are some facts: Well over 95% of the rigs Relative Workshop manufacturers have hand deploy, not pull-out pilot chutes. "Packing Kathy" tells me that almost all the total malfunctions reported to her rigging service are on pull-out systems. Relative Workshop riggers have made the same observation. BOC hand deploys, in Spandex pouches, are simply more reliable overall, and therefore dominate the market. Pull-outs can work well, too. You just have to be more careful, and know exactly what you are doing when you use them. Just understand that your chance of a total malfunction will be higher with a pull out.

[murrays 0]

With all due respect Bill...and believe me, I have a lot of respect for all your contributions to the sport.....I prefer a springless pilot chute to a spring loaded one on my main, I prefer the 3-ring to the release systems that came before it, I think the Sigma tandem rig is what I would want to use if I started doing tandems again, and I think the Skyhook is a brilliant invention.....I disagree on how to open my main container.
I'll take a total on a pull-out anyday over a p/c in tow. A reserve deploying into clean air is vastly preferable to hoping it will clear your main p/c and bridle in my opinion.

That being said, after jumping pull-out for 23 years I'm now jumping BOC throw-out on both of my rigs...I bought one with BOC last year and converted the other to do wingsuit jumps with it....based on the recommendations of Bird-Man. I felt it would be better to have the same deployment system on both rigs and didn't convert the new rig to pull-out.

I hate throwing out the pilot chute and waiting for the container to open. After 2 decades plus of knowing that my container was open when I released my p/c it is difficult to feel otherwise. If it weren't for wingsuit jumping I would be jumping pull-outs on both rigs.

I still prefer the failure mode of not being able to find a pud to towing a pilot chute. I've dropped my handle or had it knocked loose 4-5 times over the years and never had a problem finding it and deploying my main. It isn't that difficult to deal with if you have practiced it on the ground and know your gear.



One thing that I feel never gets mentioned in these discussions is the large number of people that are put into a very dangerous situation by misrouted bridles and/or towed pilot chutes. Pilot chutes in tow are much less a problem these days with BOC. There aren't quite as many ways to screw up and misroute a bridle but...people still do it. (I find it funny when I remember that one of the arguments previously used by throw-out proponents against the use of a pull-out was that "you can see what you're pulling" with a throwout..when throw-outs were belly-band or ROL mounted.)

The possibility of a horseshoe and the elimination of the possibility of a misrouted bridle (I made my choice before BOC was available) is what led me to choose pull-out over throw-out in 1981. I felt that pull-out gave me fewer ways to screw up packing and I liked the failure mode of pull-out better. I've never regretted that decision.

I find it unfortunate that too many people make this decision without really investigating both systems and educating themselves in the process. Knowing your gear is a good thing no matter what you jump.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[Chrisky 2]

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that's totally different... with pull out, you still place the pc in clean air when done properly. I think both systems are fine when operated properly... when you get complacent, or lazy, both systems can fail. We could sit here and debate one or the other for days and not agree on which one is better. I think with the pros and cons weighed for both of them, whichever decision the individual goes for, is the right one for them.

I'm all with you on that.
Just wanted to point out the flaw in comparison with statics and (modern) reserves...

And learned about the Jesus rope that way...

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[VectorBoy 0]

Can a pull out ever have a horseshoe mal, does it happen very rarely? Or is this the territory of the throw out only?

[USPA 0]

Wow, I feel honered by a reply on my post by Bill Booth himself.

I think we both agree. Pull-out is a more complicated system to operate correctly. The KISS principle should apply here which means the throw away is the superior opening system.

Then why do I personally use pull-out? It's for one reason mainly. THey only thing I am afraid of is a premature opening on the throw away. I'm a vidiot and instructor. And I sometimes combine those 2 in 1 jump. The instructor part of me has to move around the tight spave of a full grand caravan, after which I am next to an open door for sometime several minutes. Also being the vidiot I sometimes have to stand over a minute just in front of the tail waiting for the #%#%(*& tandem FINALLY comming out. In both situations I prefer the pull-out cause it's less likely that my main pilot slips out. I do acknoledge all the troubles associated with pull-out, from packing error to "solving" a flying dildo untill you meet mother earth or Mister Cypres. And by preparing myself for those situations I hope I'll handle correct. (Which so far means I had to hurt alot of packers... ) (If you don't know how to close my rig, ASK!)

Also on a final note, I don't like the standard configuration on my Javelin Odessey for pull-out. The bridle is too long. I converted the bridle to a loop, connecting the pin, handle and pilot. Now the bridle is the shortest possible so I can throw my pilot away (vidiot wings) and I have a pully effect on my pin.

PS
And don't worry, my next rig will be a vector and I recommend vector to most of my students. I got this rig for free...

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[murrays 0]

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Can a pull out ever have a horseshoe mal, does it happen very rarely? Or is this the territory of the throw out only?

Sure.

I'd say you could get a horseshoe with a pull-out if you were jumping camera, did a poor throw and had the p/c entangle with your camera gear.

You can get the same result with a throw-out. P/C entangles with helmet, drag on the bridle pulls the pin...same result.

If you somehow dislodged the main closing pin with the pull-out handle still stowed you could get a horseshoe.

I think that getting the main pin dislodged on a throw-out is more difficult as the curved pin will rotate away from the force being applied.

If you have a main closing loop break on either system you get the same result.....handle still stowed with a main container open at the mercy of the wind. In some respects, I would prefer a BOC in this instance because if you have packed your p/c properly drag on the bridle should extract it from the pouch. If your pull-out handle is real secure the grad might not accomplish this. Both situations can be resolved by quickly grabbing the handle and throwing it the hell away from you.

Misrouting a main bridle and towing a pilot chute is pretty much the domain of the throw-out. A friend of mine with nearly 10k jumps packed himself a p/c in tow summer before last....I figure that if a master rigger with 10,000 jumps and ~ 40 years in the sport can mess up and pack a p/c in tow...anybody can..... remember...NOBODY is BULLETPROOF....I am more comfortable with the bullets a pull-out shoots my way I guess.

A poor throw on either system while jumping camera can get you in a very bad situation very quickly. In some respects, I might prefer to jump a throw-out if I was jumping camera. If the p/c entangled...at least the main pack isn't open...for a while anyway. If the bridle catches enough air it could pull the pin and leave you in exactly the same situation. You might have a bit more time to clear the p/c or fire off the reserve before too much stuff was trailing behind on a throwout system. This might be better.

If you keep your main closing loop in good shape and jump a rig with good pin protection the possibilities of main pin dislodging and closing loop breakage for both systems are pretty minimal. Although a lot of the possibliities for misrouting a bridle on a throw-out have been eliminated by the switch to BOC the possibility still exists.

If you diligently check the routing and packing of your bridle on a throw-out every jump you should never have a p/c in tow. But, we don't always do that and the resulting situation is the one that made me choose the other deployment system.....so it's pretty funny that I'm now jumping BOC.

(The irony of me bouncing from a p/c in tow would be too much wouldn't it...I better be extra careful with those damn bridles and curved pin thingies )

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[diablopilot 2]

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If you have a main closing loop break on either system you get the same result.....handle still stowed with a main container open at the mercy of the wind. In some respects, I would prefer a BOC in this instance because if you have packed your p/c properly drag on the bridle should extract it from the pouch. If your pull-out handle is real secure the grad might not accomplish this. Both situations can be resolved by quickly grabbing the handle and throwing it the hell away from you.

I differ in opinion with you on this.

In the closing loop breaks scenario, on a BOC throwout, if the main begins to deploy, the P?C is not going to be extracted easily, at the bridle will be pulling almos 90 degrees to the opening of the pouch. In addition finding said handle will be dificult as the botom of the main tray will be pulled high(er) up on your back without the packed main to give is suport and form.

The same scenario on any of the 5 pullout rigs I've owned would have resulted in the pud being pulled free of its Velcro and/or compresion flaps as it is pulling in at 90 to the velcro and once the bag is out of the container the compresion force holding the handle in place is gone.

A horseshoe is possible but if it were to happen it would more likely come from and entanglement with an extremity of the body, or a piece of helmet mounted gear.

My biggest reason for jumping the pullout is the reduced chance of a sustained horseshoe malfunction which is, in my opinion, THE scaries malfunction scenario in the sport.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[scottjaco 0]

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Well over 95% of the rigs Relative Workshop manufacturers have hand deploy, not pull-out pilot chutes. "Packing Kathy" tells me that almost all the total malfunctions reported to her rigging service are on pull-out systems.

Ahh Thank you Mr. Booth. It is great to hear the
V-man himself take my side in this somewhat senseless debate! Thank you!

I also must apologize on behalf of my skygod brother (and good friend) "DGSKYDIVE" for his inflammatory posts that would rival the dialog of a 1980's Twisted Sister video Does that angry DAD ring a bell?

My brotha is just hungry for knowledge.

I as well!

Thank you!

scott

[billvon 3,110]

>Statics are pulled out by the plane . . .

That's a direct bag static line rig. There are also pilot chute assist static lines, in which the main is either packed like a ripcord rig with spring loaded PC or like a pullout with a throwout-type PC. The term "assist" comes from a piece of velcro or rubber band that "helps" the PC out into the air once the main container is opened by the static line.

[USPA 0]

Staticline systems other then direct bag should be forbidden though IMHO.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[USPA 0]

I thought you were gone?

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[Kris 0]

He didn't take your side. You're still wrong on the deployment stages in regards to what is supposedly "proper".

You would do well to listen more and talk less at this stage in your skydiving, Scott.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[riggerrob 643]

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Staticline systems other then direct bag should be forbidden though IMHO.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Let's take this to a new (static-line) thread, limited to instructors.

[riggerrob 643]

there were hand deployed reserves.

[seal_S49 0]

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If you somehow dislodged the main closing pin with the pull-out handle still stowed you could get a horseshoe.

The only time I've personally witnessed a pull-out container open prematurely, the PC pulled the pud loose & resulted in a good main deployment (at 12000'). A gotta think that a horseshoe would be a very unlikely result because the PC (even dancing on the edge of the burble) creates so much more drag than the strength of the pud attachment. How bad would a pilot chute have to be to not create enough drag? If the Velcro (elastic, or whatever) was that strong, I'd be afraid I couldn't pull it myself. Obviously any system has to be maintained.

Has anyone personally witnessed a horseshoe on a pull-out system, or are we stretching the imagination here?

[rigging65 0]

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Has anyone personally witnessed a horseshoe on a pull-out system, or are we stretching the imagination here?

No, and I've never heard on one...but that doesn't mean it can't happen. IMO, the major argument that people have against pull-outs is that you are more likely to have a total mal with them. And most people will agree that you reduce the odds of having a p/c in tow and a horseshoe with a pull-out. I couldn't agree more, and thats why I like the system.

I think you're much less likely to have a p/c in tow or a horseshoe (both of which I really dislike the idea of) and if you do have a total on a pull-out, you're putting your reserve out past a little PUD on an 8 inch bridle. Beats the hell out of a 9 foot bridle and a p/c, if you ask me. Both systems work fine. One requires a bit more attention during packing, but not much.

I'm all about stacking the deck in my favor in this sport, so if I can find a way to reduce the odds of two mals in exchange for the possibility of one mal (if I am REALLY sloppy when I close my container), the math works out better for me, in my head. Thats why I chose a pull-out.

It's also been my experience that some (please don't read into this, I said SOME) old dawgs that were around back when the pull-out first came around, have very bad memories of their friends going in searching for a floating PUD. The system for securing the PUD to the rig was very different back then, and VERY substandard. It's rather rare to hear of floating PUDs now-a-days, and pull-out jumpers know the 2 strikes rule. IMO, the advancements in the system have brought it into the same realm of security (if not more-so) than the spandex BOC. Plus, a pull-out p/c is totally protected from the wind (unlike a spandex BOC) and requires less maintenance than a BOC...all additional reasons why I like it.

...my $.02 cents...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[TimHurford 0]

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Sometimes it seems that the Australians need a convenient scapegoat when someone dies.

Hey Rob,
You on wind hold or something and looking for some excitement? Or are you testing the timezone difference to see who's awake over here?

[Chrisky 2]

Very good arguments, learning a lot of this thread.

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Plus, a pull-out p/c is totally protected from the wind (unlike a spandex BOC)

Just one tiny objection here.
My BOC has about zero bridle exposure, and the PC is completely protected from the airflow. It's a BOC with a Freefly Pud.

Image

Now, in this image the bridle is actually exposed (the bright yellow thingy there...), as it was one of my first packjobs on that rig. Doesn't happen anymore.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[seal_S49 0]

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...my $.02 cents...

I'd call that about 5 buck's (our overseas readers can do the exchange rate) worth of good advice . I think that others have explained this issue well enough that I don't need to repeat why I choose to jump a pull-out.

I agree that almost anything can happen, and I'm not gonna be the one to say that a horseshoe can't result from a premature pull-out opening, but let's see if anybody has actually experienced or witnessed one.

[murrays 0]

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If you have a main closing loop break on either system you get the same result.....handle still stowed with a main container open at the mercy of the wind. In some respects, I would prefer a BOC in this instance because if you have packed your p/c properly drag on the bridle should extract it from the pouch. If your pull-out handle is real secure the grad might not accomplish this. Both situations can be resolved by quickly grabbing the handle and throwing it the hell away from you.

I differ in opinion with you on this.

In the closing loop breaks scenario, on a BOC throwout, if the main begins to deploy, the P?C is not going to be extracted easily, at the bridle will be pulling almos 90 degrees to the opening of the pouch. In addition finding said handle will be dificult as the botom of the main tray will be pulled high(er) up on your back without the packed main to give is suport and form.

The same scenario on any of the 5 pullout rigs I've owned would have resulted in the pud being pulled free of its Velcro and/or compresion flaps as it is pulling in at 90 to the velcro and once the bag is out of the container the compresion force holding the handle in place is gone.

A horseshoe is possible but if it were to happen it would more likely come from and entanglement with an extremity of the body, or a piece of helmet mounted gear.

My biggest reason for jumping the pullout is the reduced chance of a sustained horseshoe malfunction which is, in my opinion, THE scaries malfunction scenario in the sport.

JP - Thanks for your points.

I'm not very familiar with some of the new pull-out systems but the ones I have seen seem to have the handles pretty well secured with velcro. It seemed to me that they wouldn't be as easily removed in this scenario...so I appreciate your observations.

Seeing as how the only reason I am jumping BOC is due to wingsuit jumping and I believe that you jump pull-out with wingsuits would you care to tell me of your experiences, techniques, etc as I'd like to switch back to pull-out for everything

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[murrays 0]

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One requires a bit more attention during packing, but not much.

I've always found throw-outs to be much more difficult and finicky to pack. Seriously.

You have to fold the p/c up neatly so that it won't jam in the pouch, be extremely careful of the bridle routing, make sure that there is enough bridle above the pin to allow pin extraction, etc, etc.

My pullout is very easy and fast to pack in comparison. Fold pilot chute in half and stuff it at the bottom of the main container, fold the bridle back and forth at the top of the d-bag, close the flaps, put in the pin, tidy up the grommet end and secure the dildo. I'm done before most people fold a pilot chute on a throwout.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[diablopilot 2]

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Seeing as how the only reason I am jumping BOC is due to wingsuit jumping and I believe that you jump pull-out with wingsuits would you care to tell me of your experiences, techniques, etc as I'd like to switch back to pull-out for everything

I do, and I can't say I'd recomend it to anyone not familiar with both wingsuit flight, and pullouts. Otherwise I don't do much of anything different. I pull the handle to full wing extention, "flick" it outward, and collapse all the wings.

I have played with the "failure mode" by doing a quick toss, and leaving all wings inflated. I can keep the p/c bouncing around on my back as long as I want, but can clear it easily by tucking the wings in and diping a sholder to get air across my back.

I do feel the throwout has an advantage, but I've not yet had a problem (over 300 flights) and am willing to manage that risk.

Oh, I don't have anything other than "stock" bridles (Infinity and Mirage)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[murrays 0]

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Seeing as how the only reason I am jumping BOC is due to wingsuit jumping and I believe that you jump pull-out with wingsuits would you care to tell me of your experiences, techniques, etc as I'd like to switch back to pull-out for everything

I do, and I can't say I'd recomend it to anyone not familiar with both wingsuit flight, and pullouts. Otherwise I don't do much of anything different. I pull the handle to full wing extention, "flick" it outward, and collapse all the wings.

I have played with the "failure mode" by doing a quick toss, and leaving all wings inflated. I can keep the p/c bouncing around on my back as long as I want, but can clear it easily by tucking the wings in and diping a sholder to get air across my back.

I do feel the throwout has an advantage, but I've not yet had a problem (over 300 flights) and am willing to manage that risk.

Oh, I don't have anything other than "stock" bridles (Infinity and Mirage)

Thanks JP...I've got lots of pull-out experience but only a handful of wingsuit flights. Do you have open corners on your rigs? Do you think that a longer bridle would get rid of the dancing pc?

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[dgskydive 0]

Dom

[diablopilot 2]

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Do you have open corners on your rigs?

Nope, I'm a stuborn bastard. I'm comfortable jumping it "stock".

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Do you think that a longer bridle would get rid of the dancing pc?

I don't get this unless I leave the wings open. For me the deployment seems pretty normal. The bridles are throwout length.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.