Lesson Learned

[GreenMachine 0]

[Green]Well I just got back from some ground launching, sorta....

I used my Dagger 266, a 60 meter dynamic climbing rope,
pulled by my little Toyota truck, and a homemade cutaway
system --- piece of PVC as the handle & nylon rope attached
to a foot of vinyl covered steel cable routed thru a riser's
3 rings.

I wore th harness, set the canopy on the ground, and tied the
climbing rope to a 2" stainless steel ring hooked to the 3 rings.

My buddy in the truck drove forward while I kited the canopy.
Once it took shape he eased on the gas and I gained altitude.
At the apex of ascent I cutaway and then landed the wing.

So we did this 5 times ---- me 3 times and him twice (he only
has 4 tandems). On the 2nd run i lost the toggles and had to land
with the rear risers and over amped it which hurt a little. In the
past I'd only landed on rear risers using smaller, ellipitical canopies
and putting down a 266 was totally different. Now I understand
why some of the people I saw at the Potatoe bridge biff in when
landing on rears. It takes more skill than I had originally thought.

Of course for subsequent runs I ran the brake lines thru the guide
rings and did not have to worry about loosing the toggles...

Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

[MyTwoCents 0]

Last I heard, combining square canopies with engine towing is asking for disaster. I'm sure somebody else will confirm this or dispel it as an urban legend.

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...landing on rears. It takes more skill than I had originally thought.

Sorry, but I consider that bullshit. I've said this a million times, and I'll say it again; landing a BASE canopy on rear risers is the easiest thing on the world. Anybody who biffs in at the Perrine while flaring with rear risers is a fucking tool and shouldn't have jumped in the first place.

Btw, I'm a shitty pilot.

[n_pertuset 0]

mind posting pics of your cutaway system?

Nathan

[RiggerLee 61]

The term for what happens when that goes wrong is Lock Out.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Careful on that towing setup of yours. Most towing occurs with a tensioned system that pays out more line between takeoff and cutaway. A fixed length is begging for trouble. In this case, you might have been better served by that big BASE canopy of yours, as smaller wings will be more twitchy and prone to twisting up or spinning off the line of flight. Ever downplaned w/ a truck?
-C.

[RJmoney 0]

The best advice i've gotten on landing on rears is its softer to not flare and plf than to stall it out on your ass. obviously doing it right is better than each of these options.

word to your mother,
RJ$$
BASE 1117

[TomAiello 26]

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Sorry, but I consider that bullshit. I've said this a million times, and I'll say it again; landing a BASE canopy on rear risers is the easiest thing on the world. Anybody who biffs in at the Perrine while flaring with rear risers is a fucking tool and shouldn't have jumped in the first place.

Ease down there, cowboy.

The first time that anyone does anything (and landing on rear risers is a "thing" in this context) they can't be expected to get it perfect. That's why we have that thing we call "practice."

Plenty of folks have screwed up rear riser landings because they forgot to practice them somewhere like this span. You calling them a "fucking tool" isn't going to encourage them to practice where other people can see them.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[dbagdrew 0]

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...landing on rears. It takes more skill than I had originally thought.

Sorry, but I consider that bullshit. I've said this a million times, and I'll say it again; landing a BASE canopy on rear risers is the easiest thing on the world. Anybody who biffs in at the Perrine while flaring with rear risers is a fucking tool and shouldn't have jumped in the first place.

Btw, I'm a shitty pilot.

While that may be true. I think the more important point, rather than 'landing a BASE canopy on rears is hard' is that 'landing a BASE canopy on rears is different than landing a small elliptical canopy on rears'.

For those of use with more skydiving experience than you, (most people on here, haha) this might be something to think about. I know it has reminded me to try some landings on my BASE canopy on rears in a nice controlled environment. Probably better than figuring out the differences after I drop a toggle on a low jump. (not that I'm planning on it)

Edited to add: Tom beat me to it.

Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge. - Mark Twain

[MyTwoCents 0]

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...landing a BASE canopy on rears is different than landing a small elliptical canopy on rears...

Jup, and skydiving is different than BASE jumping.

[pBASEtobe 0]

As mentioned many times before, this type of towing is a BAD idea even with a cutaway system!

Not trying to flame you or call you stupid or anything, just trying to warn you.

[MyTwoCents 0]

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Ease down there, cowboy.

I know. It's one of those days.

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Plenty of folks have screwed up rear riser landings because they forgot to practice them somewhere like this span. You calling them a "fucking tool" isn't going to encourage them to practice where other people can see them.

There was a time when one jumper could call another jumper a fucking tool and both of them would listen carefully in the hope of learning something. When did we all become a bunch of sissies? Where is the Ray Losli wisdom when you need it?

My point is; I can't believe people are still breaking legs over rear risers landings. There is no excuse for doing so except in a tremendously small amount of landing areas that 99 percent of jumpers will not ever have to land in anyway. Failing to properly execute a rear riser landing is failing to properly understand the history and motivation of the LRM is failing to give a sport the attention it requests.

I'll add that the Perrine is not a good place to try a rear-riser landing for the first time. Try a dropzone.

[audacium 0]

Hi,


I will add my voice that I think you should be careful with your towing system. In paragliding towing is quite popular, and for towing special systems are used, e.g. break points, towing systems with varying force etc.

A fixed rope as you seem to use it can quickly lead to really nasty accidents, as mentioned already it is called a lock out where your canopy flies away from the towing direction straight into the ground without a chance to recover. A rope with 60 m seems ridiculously low to me and asking for problems...in case of a bad situation (lock out) you have nearly no time to react.

Have fun with your canopy, still

--
Eduard

[980 0]

Are you basing your opinions mostly on rear riser landings while you still have the toggles (slider down/off) or they are captive (not using the LRM or jumping slider up), or are you basing it on rear riser landings with both toggles thrown (or brakelines released with line-release toggles)?

[MyTwoCents 0]

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Are you basing your opinions mostly on rear riser landings while you still have the toggles (slider down/off) or they are captive (not using the LRM or jumping slider up), or are you basing it on rear riser landings with both toggles thrown (or brakelines released with line-release toggles)?

Either. I've done both many times on skydives and BASE jumps, including the use of slider-up LRM on skydives to simulate full toggle releases (before I had WLOs).

My second jump at BD 2005 was an intentional 360 line-twist to WLO toggle release on both sides followed by a rear-riser beach landing in the second circle, if it's worth anything other than bragging points.

Alas, apologies for derailing the thread. To me the more important lesson is that I'm not going to tie my square canopy to a car, cut-away or not. Enough people have died doing this on a windy and boring Sunday afternoon.

[worldsocold 0]

quote:
"I'll add that the Perrine is not a good place to try a rear-riser landing for the first time. Try a dropzone. "

that's funny. the whole thing! the poster of the thread. "greenmachine" and the moderator were both present when i did my first rear riser landing with a tail wind at the potato bridge. and just earlier that day tom a. told me how to land with rear risers on a BASE canopy. and yeah i stood it up.

all tom told me to do is at about the last second (i would say 3 feet?) give them risers a good yank and prepare for a PLF.
I also put my knees together and brought them up to hip level getting ready to roll over and PLF.

the bad part is.....i couldn't tell you how i managed to drop both toggles. never did before that or since then! every once in awhile i watch it on video and wonder???????? how the hell did i drop the one and then the other? and then i pat myself on the back for at least standing it up after being such a loser to have dropped the toggles in the first place!!

later and sorry you got hurt MR. GreenMachine

NPS SUX ASS

[sabre210 0]

So what?

I biff in plenty with both toggles in my hands, never mind rear risers. Anyone who starts blurting the old cliche 'if you can't .......[add whatever here]....then you shouldn't be base jumping in the first place' is a spoon and needs a reality check. Shit happens, people fuck up, circumstances conspire. Want proof, check out nick dg's list.

example one: anyone who can't deal with twists on a base jump shouldn't be......tell that to slim

example two: anyone who can't exit without going head down shouldn't be......tell that to Dr. Nick

example three: anyone who can't track well enough shouldn't be.....tell that to Carl Boenish.

Step down off your pedestal before you fall down off it. Fucking up can happen to anyone. FACT.

[Mac 1]

Nicely put....

[Mac 1]

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Sorry, but I consider that bullshit. I've said this a million times, and I'll say it again; landing a BASE canopy on rear risers is the easiest thing on the world. Anybody who biffs in at the Perrine while flaring with rear risers is a fucking tool and shouldn't have jumped in the first place.

Btw, I'm a shitty pilot.

I had a toggle drop from a 220ft A and had to land on rears, I spudded in (but walked away from it)..... does this mean I am a tool and should not be BASE jumping?

[sabre210 0]

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does this mean I am a tool and should not be BASE jumping?

In your case...YES.

[Mac 1]

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does this mean I am a tool and should not be BASE jumping?

In your case...YES.

Ah thanks.... at least I now know...

[blitzkrieg 0]

well there are some differences amongst tools. one could be a very sophisticated machine, or could be the simplest of all tools... the wedge.

take your pick.

[GreenMachine 0]

Cutaway System
Please see the 5 attached photos.

Landing
I am a little sore but it really wasn't that hard of a landing.
I was wearing boots, knee pads, knee braces, helmet, and
had my feet & knees together ready to PLF.

With smaller canopies the amount of input needed to get
a reaction is less hence on this canopy I knew it would take
more input but between the low altitude, cutting away, and
the funky wind I just gave it too much. Better to learn this
in the middle of a grass field at daytime than....

Towing
Before ever knowing how dangerous this activity is/was me
and some skydivers did this at the DZ on a windy day using
a golf cart and a short, fat, nylon tow rope. We experienced
some minor lock out as well as the golf cart's back wheels
being pulled off the ground inspite of four guys riding in it.

From this experience, prior para-sailing, reading threads on
this topic, and researching what the pros use for towing up
gliders I tried to improve on the process. Yep, it is still very
dangerous. But then again so are many other things.

On the Up Shot
I got to land a new-to-me BASE canopy three times: once
with the toggles outside the guide rings, once with the toggles
routed thru the guide rings, and once with rear risers after
losing the toggles. It seems to me that this was good practice
for a newbie with very limited BASE experience.

Thanks to all for the constructive input & PM's.

Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

[Faber 0]

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I had a toggle drop from a 220ft A

ouch,atleast you knew it already from the top atleast
I jumped off 600ft lost the toogles in aprox 400ft stalled in from aprox 6 ft,if i had walked away i wrobaly would have been dead as of today,it were a "great" reminder to slow down..

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does this mean I am a tool and should not be BASE jumping?

yeah pink hat wearing mincers shouldnt be allowed BASEjumping..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[n_pertuset 0]

Very nice. How was it when you cut away (with the release of tension on the rope?) Was it pretty smooth?

Nathan

[GreenMachine 0]

Being pulled with a dynamic rope that had some give
was a whole lot smoother than the earlier tows with a
short, fixed line.

The cutaway was pretty easy to initiate but there was
some mild shock when the canopy transitioned from
being towed to flying, not sure I would call it smooth.

Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM