stows

[The111 1]

I have tried searching old posts and haven't found exactly what I'm looking for...

I use rubber bands for my stows, I think technically they may be called "long" but to me they're normal since almost everyone at every DZ in FL I've been to uses them this size. I double stow all of my stows.

However, I have been told by some that I shouldn't double stow the locking stows. Others have said not to double stow any stows which pass through grommets (first 4 on my bag). Others have said to double stow everything. All of these varying opinions have come from very qualified skydivers, most of them riggers.

I've continued packing the double stows on all stows since it hasn't caused me a problem yet (but in 200 jumps what do I know?), but this has always been in the back of my mind since some people seem to think double stowing the locking stows is asking for a baglock. Since I've just started jumping wingsuits, I read Chuck Blue's account of his friend who had a few baglocks, and the whole "double stow or not" question started popping up in my mind again, with possibly more importance this time, with regards to wingsuit deployments...

Any comments? Like I said, I've had very qualified skydivers and riggers argue for both sides, so I'm not sure what to think...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[gus 1]

Why double stow with long bands when you could single stow with short ones? Keep it simple.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[The111 1]

That's a good question, and honestly, my answer to it is horrible. Everyone else is doing it. Like I said, 99% of the skydivers I see around me are using long ones double stowed. And in my 200 jumps I have never once bought rubber bands. I've always leeched them from friends and packers. And that always seems to be what's available.

But your point is a good one. "Everyone else is doing it" is not a good answer to any question. But I am curious why everyone is doing it if short bands are such a better idea? And it does seem like a better idea...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[diablopilot 2]

2700 jumps and no problems with double stows on anything up to an including locking stows when needed.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Why double stow with long bands when you could single stow with short ones? Keep it simple.

Because for me short bands:

are harder to work with.

break more often.

are not as readily avaliable.

have caused deployment problems.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[The111 1]

Define "when needed"? Not trying to be smartassed... curious how you qualify needing them or not. I'm guessing you just base it on the tension of the band and your own judgment of whether or not it is tight enough... which brings up the predicament of how fit I am to judge something like that.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[GeeeeeeFly 0]

Recently I had a mal due to the canopy coming out of the bag late. It floated above my head spinning until the canopy finally surged out of the bag. The twist I had would have been OK if had not been flying a Velocity.
I knew it was a packing error and found out recently that I should not be double stowing the locking bands (ones going through the grommets). Personaly I think this mishap was a combination of circustances and don't feel that double stowing is the major problem. Because ahve been doing this on my FX and have had no detrimental results.
I think you should experiment a little a see what works for you. Do this all with accordance with a rigger or someone whom you regard as knowledgable in the sport.
Good luck..

G

"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"

[RTB 0]

The locking stows, the ones through the grommets, hold the lines tighter because of the canopy pushing against the lid, when the bag is being pulled up.
I don't think you should double stow them. They need to be in good shape though.
I don't think you should need to double stow any lines actually, unless maybe you have a really large pilot chute or deploy at extremely high speeds.
I single stow everything except on my tandem which has a lot higher force from the drouge, so the snatch force is quite noticeable. It also has vectran lines.

//r

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Define "when needed"? Not trying to be smartassed... curious how you qualify needing them or not. I'm guessing you just base it on the tension of the band and your own judgment of whether or not it is tight enough... which brings up the predicament of how fit I am to judge something like that.

I guess to give you a good idea I'd have to go get a spring scale and test how loose is too loose and how tight is too tight.

If I can barely tug the lines and the stow comes out without the bag moving on the ground it's too loose for me. If I can pick the bag up by the lines and give more than one or 2 good hard "jerks" with out the stow coming out it's too tight.

Not very scientific, huh?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[The111 1]

Yeh, I'd heard that same thing before, that you should be able to pick up the bag without the stows coming undone. But I guess if you can pick it up and jerk it twice like you said and it still doesn't come undone then it's too tight...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[slotperfect 7]

I suggest you consult the manufacturer of your harness/container first. They designed it, they built it, and they should be considered a qualified opinion. As you probably know already, Bill Booth - the owner of Relative Workshop - is a Dropzone.com member and frequents these forums.

PM him and I'm sure he'll help.

This is not to say that you have not already gotten qualified opinions, but I think it will help you settle on your own way of doing it.

Once you decide, buy a big bag of your choice of rubber bands - they are really cheap. Keep them in a big ziploc bag in your gear bag, and keep a dozen or so in the pockets of the clothing you jump in.

Arrive Safely

John

[karenmeal 0]

I've definitely heard cons of double stowing through the grommets but have never witnessed it personally. If you don't have access to small rubber bands and are worried about it, you can use the large rubber band and when you put it on, do a double larks head. It tightens it up to about the size of a small rubber band and is a bit easier to work with since the doubling up gives you something to grab and shove through a grommet. Its also easier to remove them when they break. (Atleast I think so.) Personally, I never double stow the first two, maybe I'm being silly, but better safe than sorry.

So if I were you, I would probably stick with those and just double larkshead the first four (or three) stows, then double stow the rest.

Make sense?

[iowa 0]

The best way that I've heard for long locking stows is to twist them several times. That shortens the loop (hole) and only leaves one wrap around the lines. You can vary the number of twists to get it as snug as you want.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[karenmeal 0]

but you would have to twist the stows every single time.. that would get old! If you just do a double larkshead then you do that once and have small rubber bands for the rest of the time.

[sundevil777 102]

It matters not whether one or two...just what it takes to undoo!

Really cheap, custom length, hand made tube stows are the way to go. Check out my instructions on how to make at either of these:


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=765700;search_string=needlenose;#765700


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=695160;search_string=needlenose;#695160

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[kaerock 1]

As you can see, you're going to get a million opinions on the subject. I'd suggest doing what works for you. You need to consider the thickness of your lines, how loose or tight your canopy fills the d-bag, and what you feel more comfortable with.

Knowing that big rubber bands are way more common, you'll find them anywhere if you need one in a pinch. But keep a couple of things in mind:
-Tension on the lines is only really required for the locking stows to keep your canopy in the bag until line stretch is reached, THEN the canopy is ready to be extracted from the d-bag. Having the canopy extracted before you get full line stretch will cause a painful opening shock.

-You do NOT want excessive tension on all other stows, you do not really need any tension at all (see stow-less d-bags), you just need some way of managing all of the lines in your pack-tray so they don't knot up or wrap around something they shouldn't. Excessive tension causes your bag to wobble as the stows come undone, causing off-heading openings or line twists.

Personally, my canopy is VERY loose in my d-bag, I have 550lb Microline (as well as using 750lb), so I double-stow my large rubber band locking-stows (all three of them), otherwise there is basically nothing keeping my canopy in the bag. I double stow all the rest of my lines with large rubber bands as well. I generally have very soft, on-heading openings with moderately to highly-loaded ellipticals. This works for me, my canopy(ies), my bag, my container, my hands.

Experiment!

-Rory

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE