AFF training regulations about maximum time between jumps before to repeat from level 1.

[shattenjager 0]

Hi everybody,
I started my AFF in 2006, I reached the level 3 but not passed, jumped 8 times total and I had to give up because I moved far from DZ and went to Iraq for more than 1 year, now I want to go back on skydiving.
So I called a DZ and the told me that I have to start from AAF 1, ground school included.
My last jump was August 2006.
I was wondering if that is a rule or is just to the DZ to decide that.
I know about the 30 days rule between levels that you must do a refresh, but online I can't find any place where I can read all the regulations that govern the AFF training.
Can anyone shed some light?
I already spent more than 1k in those jumps, I don't really feel like I have to go through ground school again!! I have military SL 108 jumps, not really my first time jumping from an airplane!! LOL
Thank you so much for your help.

The mind is like a parachute: If you don't open it, it doesn't work.

[NWFlyer 2]

Having you do ground school again seems entirely appropriate - you've been out 4 years and only have 8 jumps total.

Your 8 jumps in 2006 still count as jumps towards your license, however, you will still need to demonstrate all of the skills required to complete AFF and get cleared for self-supervision. Since you only got to your 3rd level in 2006, it's pretty reasonable for the DZ to expect that you'll need to re-do all levels of AFF.

Once you've done that, you'll still need to complete other license requirements and get to a minimum of 25 jumps to earn an A license. Those jumps in 2006 will count towards the minimum of 25, so if you can complete your other post-AFF requirements in a minimum number of jumps you may still hit an A license with 25 jumps.

You could call around to other DZs till you get the answer you want to hear, but I suspect given the information that you've provided, most DZs would give you a fairly similar answer. Some may suggest that you'd get through AFF in fewer jumps than the standard, but I doubt anyone will put you up in the air without a full ground school again. If a school does tell you that you don't need retraining on the ground ... I'd personally consider that a red flag and wouldn't want to train there.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[AndyMan 7]

Thank you for your service!

There are no hard and fast rules about where to put a student that's been away for a long time.

At the very least, putting you back in the ground school is a no-brainer. Having the opportunity to review emergency procedures, practice the dive-flow, and review canopy flight is important - and different than your static line experience.

Since there is no hard and fast rules you may find that if the level 1 goes really well, they may be willing to give a bit of an 'Accelerated' program, going to a single instructor or skipping a level here or there. Ultimately, there are no hard rules so it will be up to the discretion of the chief instructor. It will help if you still have your logbook and proficiency cards from way back.

But, even if you find a DZ that is open to the discussion of an accelerated program, don't be surprised once you get into it that they insist on the standard program - skills do fade over time and 4 years is a pretty lengthy break. You may find your skills are not as sharp as they used to be!
_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 3,119]

>I know about the 30 days rule between levels that you must do a refresh . . .

Correct. In your case, a "refresh" would be a first jump course. At most places, the amount of time spent on the refresher is proportional to the time spent away from the sport. Being out of the sport for 4 years means that you would have to spend either 4 hours in a refresher or 4-5 hours in a first jump course.

>I already spent more than 1k in those jumps, I don't really feel like I have
>to go through ground school again!

You do. You've forgotten a lot of stuff, if history is any guide.

>I already spent more than 1k in those jumps . . .

If you get back in the air and it all comes back to you, then you won't have to repeat many jumps; you'll be able to demonstrate your skills in far fewer dives, saving you some money.

>I have military SL 108 jumps . . .

That might be a bit of a problem for you. What you learn in military SL can hinder your learning in the sport world, because those (wrong) reactions are drilled so strongly into you.

[popsjumper 2]

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... If a school does tell you that you don't need retraining on the ground ... I'd personally consider that a red flag and wouldn't want to train there.

OMG, YES!

To the OP:
DO the entire FJC. Granted, much of it will spark a memory or two and wind up being a review session more than a training session...but oh my heaven's stars, a lot of it is going to be "new" to you in that you didn't remember it...with especial attention to the emergency procedures.

In reality, you will abide by the rules of the dropzone...regardless of whatever published rules from the USPA are. You are not going to win any arguments, nor make any friends by trying to stand on publications of any sort.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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>I have military SL 108 jumps . . .

That might be a bit of a problem for you. What you learn in military SL can hinder your learning in the sport world, because those (wrong) reactions are drilled so strongly into you.

Well, lets clarify...
The word "wrong" was used in an unclear context here.

Quoting Captain Obvious (whom we all know and love):
Military and civilian jumping are two different animals. What's right for one may not be right for the other.

I'm sure Bill meant that some of those military reactions are not appropriate in some situations in the civilian world of sport parachuting. You'll need to retrain yourself for the differences. Re-taking the FJC is highly, highly recommended for your situation.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jaffo 0]

I've just come back into the sport after time off. I had 300 jumps + military SL before I left the sport. I also have a "C" license.

I re-took a FJC and got in the harness to drill on emergency procedures.

If I did it with my experience, you need to also.

Take chances, just do it with all the information to make good decisions!!

Muff Brother# 2706 Dudeist Skydiver# 121.5

[davelepka 4]

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I started my AFF in 2006, I reached the level 3 but not passed, jumped 8 times total

If you never completed level 3 in the course of 8 jumps, you need to start over from the beginning.

The truth of the matter is that you only successfully passed level 2, and it's been more than 30 days since your last jump, so you get bumped back to level 1. It's pretty straightforward.

Last time I checked, AFF lv 1 includes ground school, which covers things like malfucntions on sport skydiving gear, proper use of sport skydiving gear, aircraft emergency procedures for sport skydiving, and the dive flow for your AFF lv 1 jump, all things your military jump experience have no relation to.

[diablopilot 2]

TO add to what the others have said, if money is the biggest concern as to why you don't want to go through the training again and approach this sport in the safest possible fashion, then you are in the wrong sport.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Joellercoaster 6]

Hey,

I was in the same boat as you a few years ago. They made me start again when I had done AFF to level 5 or so (memory fails me) the first time, but it had been a couple of years.

I'm glad they did.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[rehmwa 2]

I'd recommend the entire FJC

But you might get a little slack if you go to the tunnel and get your freefall position a bit dialed in.

But one still needs Emergency procedures, landing, aircraft stuff, etc

after years of layoff and only Cat C, the full retrain is warranted, frankly, starting over is warranted.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[bodypilot1 0]

Hello

Where are you located? For your military efforts I will do your refresher training for free. We can also talk about some discounted jumps to get you back in the air.

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[jaffo 0]

I don't know Ed, but that's damn nice. When I got back from Iraq in the early nineties, I didn't even get a free lunch!!

Ed, Thank you for remembering our heros!!!

Take chances, just do it with all the information to make good decisions!!

Muff Brother# 2706 Dudeist Skydiver# 121.5

[AHoyThere 0]

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Having you do ground school again seems entirely appropriate - you've been out 4 years and only have 8 jumps total.

I had this exact discussion over the last few weeks. Some guy with about this same level of experience and same amount of time off who had trained somewhere else wanted to just jump right back in where he said he left off. In fact it could be this person (OP) but I don't see any location for him.

I wouldn't do it. I held fast that he needed to sit through the FJC. He was adamant that he didn't think he should have to.

Came down to the fact that if he wanted to jump here, he'd need to sit in the FJC. Lucky for him we had a FJC scheduled the next week. But he chose not to attend.

Glad to see everyone here is on the same page.

[theonlyski 8]

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I don't know Ed, but that's damn nice. When I got back from Iraq in the early nineties, I didn't even get a free lunch!!

Ed, Thank you for remembering our heros!!!

Times have changed, we stopped in Maine on our way home from our last deployment, we were greeted by about 2 dozen people who just wanted to shake our hands. They werent even USO, just regular people that wanted to thank us.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Scrumpot 1]

If you are on the east coast (Ed is on the west) - I will be happy to donate my time as well, for your retraining. Just send me a PM. I am not a DZO however - so cannot speak for the jump cost portion. Now all we need is someone "in the middle" (and/or south, south central, north central - etc.) - - - or, for you to fill in your profile so that you can be appropriately recognized for your service, accordingly. Definitely do not skimp on getting the training/re-training done though - no matter what you may be able to "find". I'm sure we can find enough of us in here willing to both recognize and appreciate your service to us, to step up & help.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!
It would be MY HONOR to assist you in any way I can, to get you safely back in the skies. That does include however, INSISTING that you absolutely do retake a full ground "refresher"/FJC, which I will be happy to provide.

Send me a PM if you are on the "Mid Atlantic" East Coast.

Blue Skies, and welcome home.
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[jake95 0]

I feel extra proud being an american after reading the generosity of a few of these post. I too am a Veteran and it makes me feel great to see others give the respect deserved for our prior military members. it not just about the volunteering of ones time its the general concern for the original poster's safety. I applaud all of you.

I Begin my AFF aug 25th, cant wait to fly

[bdb2004 28]

My Step-father was awarded a Purple Heart in Vietnam. I have heard some of the stories of what he experienced when he returned from the war.

Fast forward to last summer. He and my mom were staying in a hotel in rural Montana, when they heard two men fighting in the parking lot. They went outside and saw the two shoving each other right next to my Step-father's truck. Suddenly, one noticed his Washington Purple Heart license plate, told the other, and they moved away from his truck before resuming their fight. That is the respect they had for his service.

Indeed, times have changed.

[wrightskyguy 1]

I just did retraining this past weekend for a guy that got to lvl 6 in 2000, then had to stop for medical reasons unrelated to jumping. Initially, my plan was to get a feel for what he retained and retrain from there. Long story short, I ended up pretty much teaching the entire FJC (didn't get paid for one though) and starting him out on C1. My advice is to go through the course again, it certainly can't hurt you, and although 108 military SL jumps is quite an accomplishment, it doesn't really help you out much AFF wise.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[shattenjager 0]

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Well, first of all, I'm sorry I couldn't log in again for such a long time but I got sent downrange again! :)
Now I'm back and I completed all 8 levels and did 2 solo, just 5 more jumps to graduation, very very happy!
I want to say thank you to Ed and Grant especially, I'm very very flattered about your offer and I hope to see you in the sky sometime soon, thank you so much for your kindness.
My question was generated by my previous experience in 2005 when I started AFF, they made me repeat level 1 three times and three times level 2 before to pass level 3 that, OF COURSE I had to repeat that too, but I gave up!
When I showed my old logbook to my current DZ instructors, all of them were really surprised, they never saw something like that, and many people told me that unfortunately some individuals do that for get more money. Why I passed all 8 levels, well I repeated the 8th but that was my fault, this time?? Did I grow wings????? My point is that I feel ripped off from those people who made me repeat those levels and spend a lot of money with no reason.
I was trained as naval commando back in Italy, so I don't consider myself as someone who doesn't listen or pay attention to my instructors.
I still recall my first level 1, when I was going to pull that one instructor removed my hand from the ripcord and pulled it.
I wanted to share this and maybe re post it because I don't want this happens to other people. I almost gave up this beautiful sport just because the bad attitude of 2 instructors.
I'm happy to discuss this topic with you, and if you need to know names and DZ, I will share those too. One day I will go to that DZ again with my A license and try to see if I recognize those two instructors, I really want to have a talk with them.

The mind is like a parachute: If you don't open it, it doesn't work.

[shattenjager 0]

My concern is not money itself, skydiving is an expensive activity, I'm aware of that and I don't mind to spend money on something I like, what I do mind is to be ripped off, because this is what happened to me.

The mind is like a parachute: If you don't open it, it doesn't work.

[davelepka 4]

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in 2005 when I started AFF, they made me repeat level 1 three times and three times level 2 before to pass level 3

many people told me that unfortunately some individuals do that for get more money.

Some individuals also make you repeat levels if they don't feel you are ready for the next one. Without personally speaking to the instructors who made you repeat the jumps, nobody knows why they did it, and it's wrong for you to assume that they just wanted more of your money. Despite what you think you remember from those jumps, the opinion of the instructors in the air with you might be different.

[shattenjager 0]

Thank you for reply, I really need others opinion.
I think I have demonstrated that I'm not either paralyzed or a human brick, since I passed all levels with no issues whatsoever.
I'd like to hear from you since you are in the sport for such a long time, how many times AFF instructors made someone repeat 1 and 2 three times???
Unless you pass out in free fall or panic, etc, I see no reason to do that, and I talked with many skydivers at the DZ, instructors included.
What I'm trying to get here is fair opinion from personal experience, I don't want other people to go the same bad experience I had, that's all.
Thank you again for your reply, that helps me.

The mind is like a parachute: If you don't open it, it doesn't work.

[davelepka 4]

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how many times AFF instructors made someone repeat 1 and 2 three times???
Unless you pass out in free fall or panic, etc, I see no reason to do that, and I talked with many skydivers at the DZ, instructors included.

Students fail level multiple times. It happens. As far as which levels and how many times, it's different for each individual.

One thing I have learned is not to second guess AFF Is unless there is video of the jump, and even then you cannot replace actually being there when it comes to determining a students performance. Just becuase you see no reason you should not have passed, or other jumpers feel like it was wrong, they were not there and the ones making the call that day, that was your instructors at the time. They were there, they were the ones who either had to jump with you the next time, or sign you off for someone else to jump with you, and they didn't want to do that.

It would be a rare case that an instructor would fail an otherwise good student who had the intentions of making another jump. If they knew you were going to jump again, they were going to get your money one way or another. On top of that, instructors in this business aren't in it for the money because there isn't much money to begin with, so when presented with an eager, interested student looking for more than a 'one time' thrill, they usually do everything they can to move them along and keep them learning and progressing.

Additionally, instructors know that students who keep coming back sometimes turn into jumpers who keep coming back, sometimes for years and years. If they were just jerking your chain, and trying to bleed you dry for cash, they would be taking the chance that you would become a licensed jumper, a regular at the DZ, and eventually learn the 'ways of the world' and figured out that they held you back for no reason.

Now if you were a one-time tandem student at a vacation type DZ, like in Las Vegas, where you were going to make your jump and then return home to Minnesota, and you feel like they overcharged you for 'custom harness adjustment', that I might believe. That's a customer the DZ will neve see again, and they have one chance to get their money and will never see them again. In your situation, it seems unlikey they would fail you for no reason.

(Just to calrify, Las Vegas was just an example, I'm not suggesting they rip off toursits at any DZ in Vegas).

[peek 21]

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Well, first of all, I'm sorry I couldn't log in again for such a long time but I got sent downrange again! :) Now I'm back and I completed all 8 levels and did 2 solo, just 5 more jumps to graduation, very very happy!

1. Thank you for your service to our country!

2. I'm sorry you have had this unfortunate experience with the sport of skydiving.

3. The sport of skydiving has often had the old-fashioned attitude that training acquired in the military "does not count" much toward sport skydiver, or actually hinders it. (I think this comes from tales of military jumpers with static line training sometimes de-arching on exit because that is how they do a static line jump from a C130 or something.)

It is my experience that military jumpers are great skydiving students. They do what I train them to do, they have a certain intuitive sense of the dangers involved, they understand canopy control and aircraft procedures very well, they are relaxed, and plus, they call me "Sir"! What more can I ask?

4. Although it is reasonable to require that people who have not jumped in a long time go through a ground school again and start with very basic skydives, I think that instructors should prepare for a student with many military jumps to progress quickly, and plan skydives that combine "levels". If the student does well, they progress back to their previous level quickly (and less expensively), if not, they simply repeat levels.

5. Many DZs/instructors simply do not take the time to know their students and their capabilities, sometimes due to the limited amount of time they are given, and sometimes because they do not care. (My preference is to care a lot about people in the military, but maybe that is just me.)