Ethical question in re: selling gear.

[jumper03 0]

Here's the story - I've got a raven reserve that I don't trust, therefore I will not jump it anymore. I do have a PD reserve on the way. The demo I jumped was amazing - I wish it were my main....

So now I've got this reserve I don't need and I could definitely use the money if someone wanted to buy it, but I don't trust it - why should I expect anyone else to? I know there are raven proponents and opponents and maybe someone would give this thing a nice home... I'm just torn about selling someone something I don't trust.

What do you all think? questions? comments? Want to buy it? (j/k)

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[hookitt 1]

What don't you trust about that particular parachute?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[skydiverek 63]

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What don't you trust about that particular parachute?

I bet he has Dash-M and this is about the whole blow up/fake fix/bartack thing...

[jumper03 0]

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What don't you trust about that particular parachute?

I bet he has Dash-M and this is about the whole blow up/fake fix/bartack thing...

Yep. Raven 249. It has the second bar tack and I don't really feel safe about that. I have one ride on it. It had a sharp turn to the right. Inspection afterward showed that all the lines are in trim. The last thing I want after having to use my last chance is to worry about a canopy with a built in turn. I had to fly with deep left brake, no right brake, and had no flare on landing - just plfed my ass off. If I would have been landing in a tighter area, I would have been screwed. Fortunately I had acres of clear landing area.

After hearing of other's problems with this reserve,
No thanks. I'll wait for my PD Reserve before I jump again.

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[RMURRAY 1]

test jump yours or one the same size - I'll bet you will be OK with it then...

rm

[hookitt 1]

No need for such an obvious speculation, I like hear the answer from jumper03 in case there is different reason.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[aero04 0]

Here's my take on it. If you don't trust it, don't sell it off. I'm sure the money would be nice, but imagine how you'd feel if you read about the buyer of that reserve going in because the reserve failed when they needed it most.

[RMURRAY 1]

Precsion should have a look at it.....

rm

[jumper03 0]

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No need for such an obvious speculation, I like hear the answer from jumper03 in case there is different reason.

That's part of the reason. The other part is the built in turn.

And I don't feel like having to pay for them to fix their own mistake.

I want something back there I can rely on and all these things taken together are enough that I just don't trust what I have now.

Maybe that makes me a wussy skydiver...

Scars remind us that the past is real

[skybytch 273]

As long as you are upfront with a potential buyer about your experience with that particular canopy (ie the turn), I don't see any reason not to offer it for sale. If someone decides to buy it they'll know exactly what they are getting, and imho that's fair.

If it was priced cheap enough it might be worth it to someone to buy it and send it back to the manufacturer to be checked out like was suggested above.

[Scrumpot 1]

Here's another suggestion. Maybe your right turn had something to do with something you didn't even realize at the time (severe harness shift comes to mind). Have a rigger at your DZ hook this canopy up as a main then jump/evaluate it. If you hang the canopy 1st and can determine no out-of-trim aspects to it, it almost has to be something else that may have just been unique to this one jump/circumstance.

By flying it once or twice as your main, you then don't have to worry about being in a position where this has been your last hope, and maybe you can dispell (or confirm) a bit of your concerns before you turn what may be a just fine canopy into otherwise just a car cover. At worst I would still send it back to precision. If they tell you they are gonna charge you to "correct" anything about it, and you decide not to & just let it go, you are still no worse off than just throwing it in the trash.

My .02,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[yoink 321]

I honestly think that it depends upon WHO you are selling to... when I bought my first rig, I missed a few questionable things that ended up costing me some cash to put right as I got more expierienced and noticed them...

I wouldn't sell gear I'm not 100% happy with to a newish jumper - the emphasis is on me to keep them safe in that case... A more expierienced jumper will have their own expierences to draw from and know what the consider to be good / or not gear...

that's just my opinion from missing repairs that needed doing at the time I bought my rig.. I had to spend some cash - it could have been lots worse.

[jumper03 0]

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Here's another suggestion. Maybe your right turn had something to do with something you didn't even realize at the time (severe harness shift comes to mind).

We checked out the harness as soon as I landed. It was symmetrical and as it should be. This was the first thing that happened after standing up - the rigger was there to pick us up.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Scrumpot 1]

Well then fine. If your gonna just throw it in the trash I'll take it from you. Feel free to PM me. I'll be happy to pay the shipping.

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 3,118]

If you are honest about the condition of the canopy and your worries, and you sell it to someone competent, then you've held up your end of the bargain. I have a Nova 150 that I would never sell to a new jumper, but if Chuck Blue wanted a canopy to mess about with, I would sell it to him no problem for $50 or so.

[kaerock 1]

Actually, I believe this would negate any potential use as a reserve. As I understand it, using it just once as a main makes it no longer suitable as a reserve again. Scratch that idea :>

-Rory

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Here's another suggestion. Maybe your right turn had something to do with something you didn't even realize at the time (severe harness shift comes to mind). Have a rigger at your DZ hook this canopy up as a main then jump/evaluate it. If you hang the canopy 1st and can determine no out-of-trim aspects to it, it almost has to be something else that may have just been unique to this one jump/circumstance.

By flying it once or twice as your main, you then don't have to worry about being in a position where this has been your last hope, and maybe you can dispell (or confirm) a bit of your concerns before you turn what may be a just fine canopy into otherwise just a car cover. At worst I would still send it back to precision. If they tell you they are gonna charge you to "correct" anything about it, and you decide not to & just let it go, you are still no worse off than just throwing it in the trash.

My .02,
-Grant

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[skybytch 273]

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As I understand it, using it just once as a main makes it no longer suitable as a reserve again.

AFAIK, Precision has stated that putting one test jump on a Raven as a main is okay - the canopy may still be used as a reserve after the test jump. I do not know if this applied only to Ravens and Super Ravens or if DashM's are included though.

Test jumping a DashM as a main would take more effort than test jumping a Super Raven as a main would. Super Ravens have a bridle attachment set up on the top skin as they were used for both mains and reserves back when people jumped primarily F111 mains. DashM's were intended to be used solely as reserves so they do not have a bridle attachment point and would have to be freebagged (or an attachment point rigged up prior to the jump) to be jumped as a main.

[billvon 3,118]

>Actually, I believe this would negate any potential use as a reserve.
> As I understand it, using it just once as a main makes it no longer
> suitable as a reserve again.

Any reserve packed and signed off by a rigger is legal to use. The rigger has to follow the manufacturer's directions.

From George Galloway:

The original question was:
"Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about using a
Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition as a
reserve? Obviously, the Raven was used as a main. The reason I'm asking
is that I recently bought a new container. I took the Ravens out of the
old container and put them in the new one. I've been thinking about
setting the old container up as a backup rig, and one of the local
jumpers has a Raven II for sale. She took good care of it so I
personally would have no qualms about using it as a main or, based on
your input, as a reserve. So, what do you think?"

IMHO, the best answers were given (in no particular order) by:

1)Tim "A canopy that is TSO'D as a certified canopy can be used as a
certified canopy, regardless of the number of jumps as long as it is
deemed airworthy by a certified rigger...

2)kleggo "inspect it,if it passes ... jump with it..."

3)David S. Clarkson "...follow the manufacturer's instructions (It may
be used as one or the other [if FAA approved for use as a reserve] but
it is not to be used as a reserve if it has been intentionally jumped as
a main canopy. One familiarization jump is allowable prior to packing
for reserve use.)
Right, David, excellent observation. That comment in the Owner's
manual is intended to encourage our customers to exercise good common
sense in choosing which container to pack their Raven into... Notice it
says "not to be used"... does that mean it can be legally packed but not
legally deployed? (big troll here)

4)bill von "when's the last time a well-maintained F111 7-cell main just
"blew up?"

5)rrrockey1@aol.com "The guy who seals it has to determine its
airworthiness"


My response to the customer was:

When a Raven canopy leaves the factory as new, it is placarded to be
certified under the authority of the TSO process. What this means is,
the design has been tested to a certain standard, and the design of this
particular canopy is consistent with a similar canopy which has been
drop tested successfully.

The parallel scenario in general aviation would be a Cessna aircraft
which leaves the assembly line in Wichita is dispatched with an
airworthiness certificate.

A Raven Reserve is only certified to be airworthy 120 days at a time,
just as the Cessna undergoes an annual inspection before it is "in
license" and declared to be airworthy.

Your question to me would be like calling Cessna Aircraft Company to see
if your used airplane can pass the annual inspection. In the case of a
parachute, it is the Parachute Rigger's discression and responsibility
to declare airworthiness for a given canopy. There in no magic number of
jumps which would subjectively disqualify a canopy for use as a reserve,
on the basis of "number of jumps" only.

This is strictly a question of judgement.... both your judgement (as the
person putting the canopy on your back), and your rigger's judgement as
to the airworthiness of that particular canopy at this pack cycle.

Most people seem willing to jump any old rag as a main canopy but they
want their reserve to be a pristine virgin. An acceptable range of
reality may reside somewhere in between. If you were to ask me if I
would exit the aircraft with a 300 jump Raven packed in a single canopy
pilot's emergency rig, my answer would probably depend on how close the
aircraft fire was getting to the fuel tanks.

[slug 1]

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As long as you are upfront with a potential buyer about your experience with that particular canopy (ie the turn), I don't see any reason not to offer it for sale. If someone decides to buy it they'll know exactly what they are getting, and imho that's fair.

If it was priced cheap enough it might be worth it to someone to buy it and send it back to the manufacturer to be checked out like was suggested above.

The problem with this scenario and scumpot's(no offense dude) is you have to be dealing with a person with the same ethics as the person who asked the origional question.

Some people in the industry or just fun jumpers would buy it cheap or take it for free and just resell it. Buyer beware thing.

I cut up my Cruise light (origional owner) and kept the warning panel for fun it only had 500 jumps on it but it was sniveling really bad. May have been able to sell it eventually to someone for a "good deal. No thank you.

Warning: Nylon burns really fast don't hang it up in you house or let kids/adult use it for a tent.

Just my opinion

R.I.P.

[skybytch 273]

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Some people in the industry or just fun jumpers would buy it cheap or take it for free and just resell it. Buyer beware thing.

True. I like to think most jumpers wouldn't do that but I know better. Since that's something a seller can't control I wouldn't let it stop me from turning a canopy I didn't want into a few more jumps if somebody is willing to pay for it knowing it's history.

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I cut up my Cruise light (origional owner) and kept the warning panel for fun it only had 500 jumps on it but it was sniveling really bad. May have been able to sell it eventually to someone for a "good deal.

I wouldn't sell a worn out main as anything other than unairworthy - suitable for decoration or as a canopy for a riglet (rigger in training) to practice patching on. Same deal though - if someone wanted to give me money for it and they knew it's exact condition and history... I'd sell it to them in a heartbeat.

[D22369 0]

--> actually you cut up what was probably a good first canopy for someone, ((well, as good as a bruze light is anyways..)) it wasnt unusual to have to modify the slider on F-111 canopys as they accumulated jumps. Many of the ravens, falcons and cruise lights at our dz had sliders with parts in between the reinforcement tape removed to speed up the deployment (ala bikini sliders)

F-111 when its new seems to open hard and land soft, as it ages it opens slow and lands hard....

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Scrumpot 1]

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The problem with this scenario and scumpot's(no offense dude) is you have to be dealing with a person with the same ethics as the person who asked the origional question.

No offense taken. That's a valid point! Actually though, my position on this was simply that if he did not like my suggestion of hanging/inspecting it, then potentially hooking it up as a main for a test jump to either confirm or dispell his fears, then I would have been happy to do that for him. Of course he does not know me, and neither do you (I think), but what I would have done had he taken me up on this offer (and perhaps I could have been more clear ...had already started in with the green ones before that post I'm afraid ) is reported back to him what I had found, and given him the opportunity then to do whatever he thought was best, based on the results.

No PM back from him yet though, so I guess he is probably as skeptical as you are. Which I agree, is not necessarily by-and-large I suppose, a bad thing.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[jumper03 0]

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Actually though, my position on this was simply that if he did not like my suggestion of hanging/inspecting it, then potentially hooking it up as a main for a test jump to either confirm or dispell his fears, then I would have been happy to do that for him. Of course he does not know me, and neither do you (I think), but what I would have done had he taken me up on this offer (and perhaps I could have been more clear ...had already started in with the green ones before that post I'm afraid ) is reported back to him what I had found, and given him the opportunity then to do whatever he thought was best, based on the results.

No PM back from him yet though, so I guess he is probably as skeptical as you are. Which I agree, is not necessarily by-and-large I suppose, a bad thing.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

Sorry, I didn't get that from your previous post. I appreciate the offer however. I really would like to know why the thing turns or even if does turn. Or was I FUBAR after it opened? There are many questions I'd like answered to tell you the truth. But, I think I've found a resolution to what to do with the canopy.

Thanks to all for your input and offers to help.

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[srg 0]

I'll give you $100 and promise never to let anyone jump it. I'm looking for a reserve to use to practice my rigging skills. I'm going to wear it out on the floor trying to learn to pack like my favorite rigger (and that's a lofty standard!) then I'll start practicing my sewing skills and give it a few patches and line repairs, etc. I will definately never let someone jump a canopy I've done all this to.

Spencer

"Be braver -- you can't cross a chasm in two small jumps."

[Stacy 0]

I have a main parachute that is pretty much unairworthy. I would not sell it to anyone to use as a main, but would sell it to someone interested in dissecting it to learn about canopy structure or a riglet, etc etc. Good deal or not, I won't let anyone jump something that my rigger doesn't think should be jumped.
__