sid 1 #1 February 27, 2004 I just opened a Javelin and found this bad boy, it's pretty easy to see what happened and how, but geesh, be careful people, please...... never get complacentPete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tink1717 2 #2 February 27, 2004 Whoa!!Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #3 February 27, 2004 hopefully the owner didn't have to use the reserve... edited to ask : any possibility of the line getting out of that situation before cypres fire ?? and after cypres fire ?? I have no idea, that's why I would say before NO, after, MAYBE and MAYBE is certainly not enough if you need the reserve to fly...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #4 February 27, 2004 Quote edited to ask : any possibility of the line getting out of that situation before cypres fire ?? and after cypres fire ?? I have no idea, that's why I would say before NO, after, MAYBE and MAYBE is certainly not enough if you need the reserve to fly... the line would absolutely have come out in both scenarios. The cutter pocket is elastic and pointed upwards for that very reason. On a Cypres fire the jumper probably wouldn't even have noticed it, on a normal reserve pull, the deployment could have been "interesting" (think one line held back while the rest of the canopy deploys) but it would have releasedPete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #5 February 27, 2004 Even if the Cypres cutter did not fire, that mis-routed line would only hesitate for a hundredth of a second. This a case of poor workmanship that looks scary but is unlikely to affect deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #6 February 27, 2004 Will you send that picture to the rigger that packed it?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #7 February 27, 2004 Would it have worked, Most likely it would have worked if the CYPRES had fired or not. Would I want the slim possibility of it not working on my back? Hell no. No one could sit here and say for sure that it would work, anything is possible, but chances are pretty favorable of it going un-noticed in a deployment. Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #8 February 27, 2004 Is that line under the cutter head, or just folded over the top of it? Wither way, the line is out of place, but it looks like it would be almost difficult to get wrapped around the cutter without trying to do it. Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #9 February 27, 2004 QuoteIs that line under the cutter head, or just folded over the top of it? Wither way, the line is out of place, but it looks like it would be almost difficult to get wrapped around the cutter without trying to do it. Ganja I'm thinking that the rigger, probably, went back into the pack job to adjust the length of the closing loop and removed it from the tray without taking the freebag out. They probably reached back under to feed it through without paying attention to the line/riser placement (this is supposition, but the easiest way that I could determine it might have happened)Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #10 February 27, 2004 How the hell did this happen? The only way I canfigure is that someone must of pulled and replaced the cypres with the bag still in the container, and caught the line putting the loop through the cutter. That or replaced the loop with the bag in place. (Possible to do) Please share this with the rigger in question. See PIA TS-116 http://www.pia.com/piapubs/TSDocuments/ts-116.pdf if you'd like guidance. PIA Rigging Committee ChairI'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #11 February 27, 2004 Do you suppose, if the rigger, did in fact go back in to shorten the loop, had he left the pull-up cord on the loop and pulled it just far enough to shorten it, could've avoided the 'situation'? Also, had the jumper been in a situation where he pulled the reserve handle, would the loop have pulled through the cutter without a problem? If, the cutter, cut the loop, I would think that there would be even less of a problem. I am not trying to take away from the fact that, the photo shows some pretty sloppy work. In rigging, neatness DOES count! I am asking questions to see what others think about it and possible consequences. Food for thought. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #12 February 27, 2004 QuoteDo you suppose, if the rigger, did in fact go back in to shorten the loop, had he left the pull-up cord on the loop and pulled it just far enough to shorten it, could've avoided the 'situation'? Chuck Yes, I think Sid was correct in saying what the previous rigger probably did was adjust the closing loop length and taking it entirely out of the container with the pull-up cord now out of the loop and through the freebag. (Long sentence, hope it made sense). IMO, it'd be best to leave as much pullup cord routed as possible without disturbing the pack job, and if you have to redo something, always double-check your work. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #13 February 27, 2004 Your sentence may have been long, but, your point came across loud and clear! I agree with you about leaving the pull-up cord in the loop (as I mentioned) and pull-out just enough of the loop through the grommets to shorten it. This way, you have enough pull-up cord to pull the loop through the grommets without 'disturbing' the pack job. I agree with you whole-heartedly about 'double-checking' your work. Leave no stone un-turned! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #14 February 27, 2004 My thoughts would be to look for a new rigger if there was one available. It may seem petty like "Anybody can make a mistake" but what else may that rigger have missed. Chances are it would have worked. But here is a scenario. Unconcious, cypres fire while a bit head down. The line may be trapped by the elastic for long enough to prevent the reserve from fully inflating before it is too late. Glad you found it on the ground! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #15 February 27, 2004 Excellent point! Maybe, the rigger that did that could be talked with about 'carelessness' and attention to 'detail'. Depends also, on his attitude. I've met one or two (in my area) that refused to 'admit' they made (or could) a mistake. That's when the PIA - Incident Report comes in real handy. Thanks, Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #16 February 27, 2004 QuoteMy thoughts would be to look for a new rigger if there was one available. It may seem petty like "Anybody can make a mistake" but what else may that rigger have missed. Chances are it would have worked. But here is a scenario. Unconcious, cypres fire while a bit head down. The line may be trapped by the elastic for long enough to prevent the reserve from fully inflating before it is too late. Glad you found it on the ground! If this was done during an attempt to shorten the loop, then the thing that jumps out to me it whoever did this is lazy. The bag should have been removed from the pack tray along with the risers and placed above the container. With the pack tray empty, adjust the loop and restart the pack job from there. Anytime you try to short cut the process you take a chance of something like this happening. jmo SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #17 February 27, 2004 Quote Anytime you try to short cut the process you take a chance of something like this happening. jmo Sparky Ain't that the truth Sparky!Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #18 February 27, 2004 I agree. Since I am going to take my test next week for my Senior rating this stuff starts to jump out at me more. When I get that lazy I should quit rigging. To lift the bag out and replace it would not add more than a couple of minutes. I know time is money, but is a couple of minutes worth the potential consequences? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #19 February 27, 2004 QuoteI agree. Since I am going to take my test next week for my Senior rating this stuff starts to jump out at me more. When I get that lazy I should quit rigging. To lift the bag out and replace it would not add more than a couple of minutes. I know time is money, but is a couple of minutes worth the potential consequences? You are right, time is money, but you will never make enough money rigging to make up for the time.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #20 February 27, 2004 first of all, everyone needs to step back and take a breath. Anyone here can fuck up, even the masterriggers. So think about what you are saying. Yes, let the rigger know about it, show him/her the photo. No need to tell anyone else. Now, if the rigger denies it, or has in the past shown to be pathetic, and sloppy, then maybe take another avenue. It sure would suck to have your reputation ruined due to one small mistake that ANYONE can make. Remember, we are here to help eachother, not piss on eachother at any given opportunity. I'm not saying this rigger didn't screw up. In my opinion, it probably would have worked. Even a perfectly packed reserve can just decide to not work on it's own. I found a closing loop on a Javelin that was looped around the cutter, which I found out can easily happen. I showed the rigger, and he was quite thankful, and slightly freaked out by it. Man, I sure would hope someone would do the same for me. We are all human, lets learn by others. There are those who have made mistakes, and those that will!my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #21 February 27, 2004 Here, Here! Well said! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #22 February 28, 2004 I wish I could think that straight all the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #23 February 28, 2004 Quote Remember, we are here to help eachother, not piss on eachother at any given opportunity. for me. We are all human, lets learn by others. and that's why I posted it, if people know the pitfalls, understand the mistakes that can be made if you're not careful, and we all share the mistakes we make and find then we're all less likely to make them again. Nice to hear a calming voice too!Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #24 February 28, 2004 don't get me wrong, I'm glad you posted it. It's a good learing experience. But I am interested if the rigger in question was shown, and what his/her reaction was.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #25 February 29, 2004 QuoteEven if the Cypres cutter did not fire, that mis-routed line would only hesitate for a hundredth of a second. This a case of poor workmanship that looks scary but is unlikely to affect deployment. I think the reserve might NOT have opened properly if it was activated by a ripcord pull. See my cheesy graphic. The trapped suspension line would see tension before any other of the lines. If the suspension line did not break, it would tend to slide off the end of the cutter. As it moves, it could trap the closing loop against the cutter. Perhaps, preventing the closing loop from sliding out of the cutter opening. At this point, there may also be twists imparted to the suspension line that would make it even harder for the closing loop to slide out. Twisting motion could also make the free end of the closing loop get twisted into the suspension line twist. One could only hope that the channel for the cutter would rip off and help relieve pressure of the suspension line against the cutter.. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
