katzurki 0 #1 December 12, 2005 Hi, Would anyone care to point me in the direction of a classic handheld video, say a 1.5-2 sec delay, with the perfect proverbial upward throw and a properly folded PC? After reviewing some of my jumps, we came to the conclusion that I am doing lots of things in a possibly dangerous manner, but I've got to see them done right before I can do them right, right? Thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #2 December 12, 2005 if you post some of your video we can esaly tell if your doing somthing wrong Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #3 December 12, 2005 Quoteif you post some of your video we can esaly tell if your doing somthing wrong He's posted this because he and I have had several discussions about the video of his jump. Coco, if you're reading this, it's the same upside-down mushroom toss thing that you and I talked about with your Dad's bridge day jump video.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #4 December 12, 2005 Oh yea that’s right! Katzurki, check out the video I posted below. My dad used that method on his second jump. BUT, it was used improperly. The way he did it in the first jump was how I had showed him to do a HH FF. But on the second jump, one of the exit staff told him to use the “upside-down mushroom toss thing.” They however did not tell him that using that method you have to do an underhand toss, not an overhand toss as I showed my dad with the first jump. That method in the second method, “upside-down mushroom toss thing”, is used for Ultra low jumps so it didn’t really pose a problem at BD. If you did what my dad did on a low one, it could cause PC hesitation and be dangerous!! Did I explain that right Tom? CocoBASE - http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2879 Katzurki, do you have a video of your HH FF jumps posted anywhere? Why not throw one up on skydiving movies? Coco QuoteQuoteif you post some of your video we can esaly tell if your doing somthing wrong He's posted this because he and I have had several discussions about the video of his jump. Coco, if you're reading this, it's the same upside-down mushroom toss thing that you and I talked about with your Dad's bridge day jump video. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #5 December 12, 2005 He has his reassons not to,its not all perrine objects out herewhich i didnt think off as i posted either Katzurki, i responded your PM Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #6 December 12, 2005 Coo coo, No biggie. Would be interesting to see what the problem is though. Sending PM. Coco Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katzurki 0 #7 December 12, 2005 QuoteHe has his reassons not to,its not all perrine objects out herewhich i didnt think off as i posted either Katzurki, i responded your PM Haha, Faber, no. It's the only legal object in Moscow, I believe. (Legal as in no one cares about it except us crazy folks.) It's just that the video itself is hosted on some sketchy site that would draw attention should it get downloaded too much, and it's much too uninteresting to post on skydivingmovies.com. Responded to PM's, thanks guys :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #8 December 12, 2005 Quoteit's much too uninteresting to post on skydivingmovies.com. I betcha that pilotdave wouldn't agree with you. And given that he runs the site, I'd say go for it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #9 December 13, 2005 Quoteit's much too uninteresting to post on skydivingmovies.com I beg to differ. See evidence that I have no standards: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3073 (Only videos I really don't care for are fatality videos. I coulda lived without seeing a PC-in tow all the way down at an old bridge day...) Dave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fastpete 0 #10 December 13, 2005 www.pete.fi or http://www.pete.fi/videos/Base are the link where you find couple of handhelds...be safe man.. Pete _____________________________________________ F......ck the Finns !!! FastPete www.pete.fi email: pete@pete.fi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites inzite 0 #11 December 13, 2005 I've placed copies of katzurki's 4th and 6th jumps at http://www.rushbug.com/node/55. The 4th jump is a freefall assist, and the 6th jump is katzurki going solo using the so-called "inverted mushroom". I'm very curious to understand the faults in this method, as it's the same one that I was taught and the same one I currently use. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #12 December 13, 2005 If you look at the direction of pitch, you are essentially pitching the PC skirt first. This means that when the PC hits the airstream it is upside down. Also, if you throw hard enough, you ought, theoretically, to be able to create a full inversion (i.e. total malfunction) of the PC, although I have never seen this in practice. Regardless, this method has, in my experience watching several hundred hand held deployments, a noticeably higher hesitation rate. I theorize that this is because of the extra time taken for the PC to "right" itself prior to inflation, and in some cases for the PC to "untangle" itself from some kind of inversion. In my opinion, this is bad practice. Also in my opinion, PC's ought to be thrown out in as close an approximation to their inflation position as possible. Throwing them with the apex in the lead is obviously superior, from this standpoint, to throwing them with the skirt in the lead. Your mileage may vary, and opinions of many experienced jumpers are certain to be different. Note that the PC held in this orientation can be used (and has been used by very experienced jumpers successfully on ultra low freefalls) in conjunction with an underhanded PC toss (opposite of the direction of the toss in Katzurki's video) to achieve very good results in reaching bridle extension and early PC inflation. For more general comments, see the following threads: Throwing Up PC Low Freefall PC Throwing Throwing Up! Especially read the comments by Roland "Slim" Simpson, Dwain Weston, and Spencer Bisley, as they are, or were, in my opinion, among the world's top experts in low freefall deployments. I've reproduced some relevant portions below, but I strongly recommend reading the entire threads to get the real flow of the conversation. Slim: QuoteThe idea is to project the PC directly up and above your head. Similar to how you might throw a tennis ball if you were trying to throw it as high in the air as possible. This works well with a more head high body angle of course. The idea is to get bridle stretch as quickly as possible and to minimise the amount of oscillation and movement of the PC before extraction. Pretty simple idea really but with a primed velcro rig and this technique I have free fallen 159ft over solid ground with a Mojo 280 in a Vision. I would not recommend this but it is possible. A Vtec'd smaller canopy would be far more appropriate. ... I vividly remember when Dwain started to do low FF's well before many others. He would trot up to the exit and as he jumped up and forward he threw the pilot chute high and above his head with a very head high body attitude. The pilot chute not only inflated above his head but also above the exit point before he fell downward. Spence: QuoteI had the same issues myself. For low FF's I would try to throw the pilot chute up much like you say and it would often distort my launch. You won't believe how easy the solution is. BACKHAND PC toss! There is nothing you have to do different with regards to s-folding the PC or managing the bridle. The toss follows the natural arc of your arms with the launch. You can actually improve the quality of your launch because you are using the inertia of your arms in the upswing. Also your arms remain completely symmetrical with each other so no inadvertent twisting after you pitch. Steve Scott from BC, Canada used this technique back in 1991 for a go n'throw from a cliff. It allowed me to drop my freefalls from 210' into the sub-180 ft range (vtec) comfortably. (4-5 sec canopy flights).-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 0
pilotdave 0 #9 December 13, 2005 Quoteit's much too uninteresting to post on skydivingmovies.com I beg to differ. See evidence that I have no standards: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3073 (Only videos I really don't care for are fatality videos. I coulda lived without seeing a PC-in tow all the way down at an old bridge day...) Dave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastpete 0 #10 December 13, 2005 www.pete.fi or http://www.pete.fi/videos/Base are the link where you find couple of handhelds...be safe man.. Pete _____________________________________________ F......ck the Finns !!! FastPete www.pete.fi email: pete@pete.fi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inzite 0 #11 December 13, 2005 I've placed copies of katzurki's 4th and 6th jumps at http://www.rushbug.com/node/55. The 4th jump is a freefall assist, and the 6th jump is katzurki going solo using the so-called "inverted mushroom". I'm very curious to understand the faults in this method, as it's the same one that I was taught and the same one I currently use. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #12 December 13, 2005 If you look at the direction of pitch, you are essentially pitching the PC skirt first. This means that when the PC hits the airstream it is upside down. Also, if you throw hard enough, you ought, theoretically, to be able to create a full inversion (i.e. total malfunction) of the PC, although I have never seen this in practice. Regardless, this method has, in my experience watching several hundred hand held deployments, a noticeably higher hesitation rate. I theorize that this is because of the extra time taken for the PC to "right" itself prior to inflation, and in some cases for the PC to "untangle" itself from some kind of inversion. In my opinion, this is bad practice. Also in my opinion, PC's ought to be thrown out in as close an approximation to their inflation position as possible. Throwing them with the apex in the lead is obviously superior, from this standpoint, to throwing them with the skirt in the lead. Your mileage may vary, and opinions of many experienced jumpers are certain to be different. Note that the PC held in this orientation can be used (and has been used by very experienced jumpers successfully on ultra low freefalls) in conjunction with an underhanded PC toss (opposite of the direction of the toss in Katzurki's video) to achieve very good results in reaching bridle extension and early PC inflation. For more general comments, see the following threads: Throwing Up PC Low Freefall PC Throwing Throwing Up! Especially read the comments by Roland "Slim" Simpson, Dwain Weston, and Spencer Bisley, as they are, or were, in my opinion, among the world's top experts in low freefall deployments. I've reproduced some relevant portions below, but I strongly recommend reading the entire threads to get the real flow of the conversation. Slim: QuoteThe idea is to project the PC directly up and above your head. Similar to how you might throw a tennis ball if you were trying to throw it as high in the air as possible. This works well with a more head high body angle of course. The idea is to get bridle stretch as quickly as possible and to minimise the amount of oscillation and movement of the PC before extraction. Pretty simple idea really but with a primed velcro rig and this technique I have free fallen 159ft over solid ground with a Mojo 280 in a Vision. I would not recommend this but it is possible. A Vtec'd smaller canopy would be far more appropriate. ... I vividly remember when Dwain started to do low FF's well before many others. He would trot up to the exit and as he jumped up and forward he threw the pilot chute high and above his head with a very head high body attitude. The pilot chute not only inflated above his head but also above the exit point before he fell downward. Spence: QuoteI had the same issues myself. For low FF's I would try to throw the pilot chute up much like you say and it would often distort my launch. You won't believe how easy the solution is. BACKHAND PC toss! There is nothing you have to do different with regards to s-folding the PC or managing the bridle. The toss follows the natural arc of your arms with the launch. You can actually improve the quality of your launch because you are using the inertia of your arms in the upswing. Also your arms remain completely symmetrical with each other so no inadvertent twisting after you pitch. Steve Scott from BC, Canada used this technique back in 1991 for a go n'throw from a cliff. It allowed me to drop my freefalls from 210' into the sub-180 ft range (vtec) comfortably. (4-5 sec canopy flights).-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
