para-service.com

[arlo 0]

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If it was my business and someone wanted a canopy, I am probably going to sell them one. It's the responsibility of the canopy pilot and maybe the S&TA or the DZO to monitor what happens at the DZ not the guy at the gear store.

Granted, the guy at the store can try and help educate as a service to skydivers so maybe more people don't get hurt..

My 2 cents,

~Jeff

are you SERIOUS? you would sell a 79 velocity to someone you knew had 50 jumps? i question why some people are in this sport sometimes.

please do the skydiving community a service by staying the hell away from the employee side of any gearstore or putting yourself in a position (read that as "instructor") directly influencing any up and coming skydiver. it's refreshing to see such concern for fellow skydivers.

it's not always about the money. i really feel sorry for the folks that think they'll actually learn something from your "experience."

what the fuck.

arlo

[arlo 0]

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I don't know what business your in but I am sure that you sell your product (which it doesn't matter what the product is) to anyone that is willing to pay for it so that you and yours can eat and sleep under a roof. The people selling gear want to eat to and it is absolutely none of your business to whom they sell to. It is the respondsibilty of the purchaser and where they chose to use said merchandise.
Are we in a communist country now?
You holy than thou people need to get a life and stay out of others businesses, they choose to run a gear store and can run it how they see fit it is not yours. You can buy from who you like and I would bet that if said gear store is $400 less you will buy from them and never tell.
The Berlin Wall fell years ago lets not build it back!

you OBVIOUSLY don't have a clue what you're talking about. the difference between people that will sell high performance gear to someone too inexperienced to fly it and people that won't is a fucking CONSCIENCE. if you for a second think that she would sell gear to someone if it cost her the power being turned off, you are SADLY mistaken. if that's what they do where you jump, then they are doing you a disservice.

so before you start spewing forth about the berlin wall and other shit, you remember that the folks at the gear store don't have to sell a goddamn thing to anyone....period.

as you said, that gear store has every right to sell to whoever the fuck they want, but we also have every right to put it out there how unsafe an attitude that is and let the consumer decide.

it's good to see you guys actually give a shit about anyone other than yourselves. but then again, i guess it takes all types.

wtf.
arlo

[theskydiveguy 0]

Arlo

Your typical American attitude is one which amuses me. You are telling me that someone sells you a Ferrari and you dont have the skills to drive it and hit a wall at 200KM/H you are going to go back to the dealer to ask why they sold the car to you without checking you had the proper training for driving that fast?

Stop passing the buck Arlo. Take responsibility for yourself, if I saw someone trying to jump a 79 with 50 jumps I would say something to them, if I owned a store and a customer wanted to buy one, I would sell it to them, I WILL REPEAT ONLY ONCE MORE, IT IS THE USERS RESPONSIBILITY TO HAVE THE SKILLS TO BACK UP THE CANOPY HE/SHE FLIES.

Why is this a hard concept? If instructors did their job ARLO and taught students proper canopy control and if students heeded advice maybe no would get hurt. One thing I can tell you is that most of the posts that I read about people dying here in the website tend to be very experienced canopy fliers.

I dont think that anyone deserves to get hurt, I also dont think blaming gear sales people will slove any problems, only create them.

~Jeff

[Kris 0]

Your car analogy is wrong. You don't have to drive that Ferrari at full-speed, you can tool it along at 1 mile per hour if you wanted.

A parachute is coming back to the planet whether you like it or not, and a small one is coming back that much faster.

You're comparing apples & oranges.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[theskydiveguy 0]

Kris

You are right, but the point I am trying to make is that WE cannot blame the gear sales person. They are there to advise but should not be held responsible for doing what people in sales do.. Sell product.

Not to mention I have seen lots of people bif in with canopies as big as 200..

~Jeff

[arlo 0]

jeff-

umm, what's with the "american" thing right off the bat? i guess you're amused because we actually give a shit about other folks. don't compare me or my attitude to anyone. it's mine. don't dilute it.

and you asked if i was telling you that if someone bought a ferrari....blah blah. uh, no. i never mentioned cars. i'm talking about canopies here. if you can't distinguish between the two, you may be too affected by the cold, or in the wrong sport.


that aside...

i don't pass the buck...jeff. and would you actually recognize a 79 canopy in the hands of someone with 50 jumps?

if you think the people that are dying are only experienced ones, you should try a little more reading comprehension.

if you think that my argument is that gear sales persons are responsible for folks that get hurt, you're comprehension is lacking yet again. it is ultimately the skydivers responsibility. but that does not mean the responsibility can't be shared. we're not talking binary here....jeff.

i said that it is collectively our responsibility to help educate people on what they are buying. people are always learning in this sport. if customers are unsure of something or make a bad decision, i will not idly stand by and not give them advice. but maybe that's not what you're getting. maybe you're not getting good advice. i wouldn't sell someone a 218 reserve if they were jumping a tjn, either. i wouldn't sell someone a 97 sq ft canopy if they had 100 jumps and weighed 200 lbs, either.

it really disheartens me to see people like yourself who think they know everything babble about shit they know very little about.

it's not about gear stores being responsible for accidents. it's about the moral obligation to other skydivers to give them good information. again, i hope you're out of that loop.

arlo

edited to remove a shitty comment i made out of disgust. i'm sorry if i offended anyone with it.

[PhreeZone 20]

Considering Arlo works for a gear store also... I'm thinking its more of a sign that she has gear ethics then anything else.

I'm not saying that gear dealers need to regulate, but educate during the sales on why certian things are bad choices. If they choose to ignore the education then don't sell them the gear.


Lets use a different example. Your DZ decides to buy a propeller for the airplane from a store, the propeller breaks at 200 feet and the Cessna crashes and everyone on board dies. The seller says use your personal responcibility and take care of the issue your self. We should'nt blame the gear seller, we are responcibile for it our selfs right?

More people are put at risk with an out of control canopy then just the pilot. Coming from a small little DZ it might be easy to see the 3 other people in the air with you, but at a turbine DZ its really easy to be over taken by people you have no idea are there. I don't want to get into a collision with an out of control canopy just so some gear store can make $100.

I've seen biffs on every canopy and I tend to bif some tandems some times... its a lot better to bif at a 1:1 loading then impact at a 2:1 loading. Spend another 5 years jumping and see if your attitude changes.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Kris 0]

No, we can't, but we can sure as hell be pissed at them, and let others know how we feel.

There's been one death within the last few months by some 44 jump wonder planting himself into the ground with a Stiletto. A Stiletto! For fuck's sake, whoever sold him that damn canopy with his non-existent experience level and let him jump it needs to be beaten with the deceased's bloody rig.

It's about conscience. Doing the right thing. Doing the moral thing. Fuck not being blameable, having to live with yourself after knowingly selling something too advanced who hurts themselves with it should be deterrent enough.

Dude, no offense, but from your jump numbers I take it you don't have a lot of time in sport. Get a few more years under your belt seeing people get maimed....or worse, by pushing too far too fast, then let me know how you feel.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[theskydiveguy 0]

Phree, Arlo

To save time and space I will address you both. Firstly your sky-god attitude sucks.. What's a guy with a 100 jumps doing here la la la. Get over it. I dont claim to know everything about skydiving nor have I made that claim anywhere in here. I do however have the right to my opinion.

If you look way back to my response to Bytch you will see that I saw her point and I totally agree that everyone is responsible for saftey and education.

The point I am trying to make is that we cannot hold gear sales people responsible for selling equipment to people that want to get hurt or worse people who dont know better..

This all started with a post about a gear sales person who will sell any canopy to anyone and peoples disagreement with this practice. My point is simply (no cheesy analogy this time ) that blaming that gear store is not a cool practice in my opinion.

Gear checks are done at dropzones for a reason, maybe Arlo and Phree people should keep a bigger eye on us 100 jump wonders, hopefully you will find there are a few of us who actually take the time to learn as much as we can.

Maybe Kris the system of gear approval and wingloading vs. license level needs to be looked at.

Just to be clear.. I never said that people should jump High Performance canopies before they had the jump #'s to back it up.. All I said is that I disagree with the practice of holding the gear sales person responsible.

Ok.. that's it.. thanks for all your comments.. Remember it may only be 100 jumps.. but we are all here learning from one another. Oh, Arlo I have been frozen.. it's cold dude..

~Jeff

[arlo 0]

first, i'm not a dude (but you really have no way of knowing that).

okay, now that that is cleared up, you said:

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The point I am trying to make is that we cannot hold gear sales people responsible for selling equipment to people that want to get hurt or worse people who dont know better..

i never said that gear sales people should be responsible.

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This all started with a post about a gear sales person who will sell any canopy to anyone and peoples disagreement with this practice. My point is simply (no cheesy analogy this time ) that blaming that gear store is not a cool practice in my opinion.

and my point is that if the folks at the gear store knowingly sold a canopy that was too small to someone, shame on them. that is bad business in my opinion.

if i feel that someone makes an unsafe product (h/c, canopy, altimeter, whatever) i will not relinquish responsibility because i just 'sell gear.' i will say something because of my moral obligation (YMMV)...not because i'm forced to. so giving an opinion on a gear store that will knowingly sell something to someone that really shouldn't have it is justified. i have no problem with it. conversely, giving an opinion on a gear store that exhibits good moral decisions and judgement will be commented on as well.

arlo

[helldog 0]

Getting back to the purpose of the original thread....
I purchased my first rig From Para-service. Price was great....Service was really good...Had broken lines on the first jump of the main (not good)....(but not their fault) they sent it back had it fixed payed the shipping both ways and the reserve repack no questions asked. Would I buy from them again...
Yes!
Hope this helps
Blue ones
Jim

[theskydiveguy 0]

Dude is not gender specific .. its similar to guys!

~Jeff

[Jib 0]

A better analogy seems to be don't prosecute the drug dealer; it's the junkie's fault.
Actually, a doctor who hands out oxycontin to kids.


** My comments have nothing to do with the original question or store **

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[grega 0]

When are you all going to realize that it's each persons own responsibility what they do with their lives?

If it's a sellers fault, if he sells someone with 50 jumps a velocity 75? Why isn't that also the fault of that one that let him in the plane. Or his mothers fault that could stop him. Or your fault that knew what he's going to do. In that case it's everyones fault that are in the vicinity of this guy.
Anyone can stop him from jumping that tiny parachute. Why is it then a sellers fault. Just because of the money? like it was said above, he has to live too.

Besides where is the freedom then, you all talk so much about, if one can't buy what he wants? what you most saying are, is that it's a responsibility of sooo many people that he stayes alive (doesn't jump that canopy) not just sellers responsibility. Or is it maybe his own responsibility?
Think what you are saying.

If i see someone with 50 jumps with velo 75. I can easily prevent him from jumping that canopy. So should i hold him (even if i have to fight him) so he won't go in the plane or should i let him go and be responsible? should i feel quilty then? Why should it be my responsibility i don't even know this quy?
Seller could prevent his "accident", but so can anyone else. so again is it everyones responsibility for almost everyone? or is it each others own responsibility what they do with their life?

Just my thoughts

p.s.: If i'd be selling canopies, i personaly wouldn't sell velo 75 to someone with 50 jumps. and if i saw someone with so small canopy on his back and only 50 jumps, i'd even fight to keep him on the ground, or i'd try hard at least... I was just saying that it's not sellers responsibility, it's jumpers own responsibility what he does.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[sangiro 26]

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When are you all going to realize that it's each persons own responsibility what they do with their lives?

We do. It's also the gear dealers responsibility what they do with their lives. It sounds to me like there are a few of them here who say they don't want memories of ignorant dead people whom they sold gear to in their lives. So they choose not to sell you their stuff. That's them choosing about their lives, not yours.

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Besides where is the freedom then, you all talk so much about, if one can't buy what he wants?

Freedom works both ways in this case. They have the freedom not to sell it to you. They choose not to. There's the freedom we talk so much about. The rest is good ethics and integrity, something we need more of.

Responsibility is sometimes bestowed, and sometimes assumed. Your point is valid that the responsibility for individual safety is not bestowed on any dealer, but that doesn't cover it off. They assume this responsibility on their own. Nothing you can do about it. Bless their hearts.

I personally applaud them, just like I applaud the gun dealer who choose not to sell an Uzi to a 16-year-old. (Yes, you can actually legally do this in many places.)

PS - I have never dealt with Para-Service so this comment does not in any way express an opinion about the company.

Safe swoops
Sangiro

[John4455 0]

Roy is my primary gear dealer. GOOD PRICES. Shop around and you will see.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[nbblood 0]

I think one thing that often gets missed in these threads is that skydivers jumping too radical of a canopy is not only a danger to themselves, but also to those around them. I applaud the gear shops that make ethical sales. They would also much prefer a skydiver to be around in 3 more years to maybe buy another canopy......just a thought.

I personally own a firearms business and I have denied purchases on a gut feeling before.....my business, my right. I don't think it's a matter of liability as I don't see the dealer as liable....I see it as a matter of ethics, not nearly so black and white, more difficult to define, but the gear dealers and gun dealers know what I'm talking about......or should.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[arlo 0]

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I personally own a firearms business and I have denied purchases on a gut feeling before.....my business, my right. I don't think it's a matter of liability as I don't see the dealer as liable....I see it as a matter of ethics, not nearly so black and white, more difficult to define, but the gear dealers and gun dealers know what I'm talking about......or should.

thanks for conveying the thoughts i have unsuccessfully tried to post. you are spot on with this, nathan.

arlo

[skymedic 0]

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I personally applaud them, just like I applaud the gun dealer who choose not to sell an Uzi to a 16-year-old. (Yes, you can actually legally do this in many places.)

one of the reasons why I left SA.....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[diablopilot 2]

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If it was my business and someone wanted a canopy, I am probably going to sell them one.

I'm glad you're not in the gear business.

Newer skydivers don't get the fact this is a SMALL comunity. It's almost a family. If someone dies because they chose a canopy that was way out of their experince level to control safely , oh well right? Not if I sold it to them. Just as an instructor would feel the guilt of a student going in because they didn't take the time to train someone well enough, I'd feel the guilt of not doing enough to prevent a novice from getting in over their head.

You are right when you say everyone is responsible for their own actions, but the logic you use is faulty. If I didn't care about the ramifications of my actions in relation to others, and were in the bridge building industry how would you feel if I had your attitude? What about when you were driving over the bridge I had built?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[voodew1 0]

I agree, this is what I was triing to say it is the gear stores decision as wether or not to sell and they should not be black listed for there decision as it is thier decision not anybody elses.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[diablopilot 2]

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and they should not be black listed for there decision as it is thier decision not anybody elses.

Yeah but you can't stop public opinion.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Spy38W 0]

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I know Paraservice sold a crossbraced canopy to one of my friends at under 200 jumps and told him he'd be fine on it. Loading it at 1.8 or so he busted himself up really good only a few weeks after recieving the canopy.

I'm going to assume you are talking about me with that statement, just to clarify, Rigs and Things Para-Service did NOT sell me that canopy.

--
Hook high, flare on time

[Martini 0]

Re: the original post. Rig & Things/ Paraservice is a reputable dealer with good products, good prices and ethical business practices in my experience. They have been my dealer of choice for some time. Someone reading this thread might get a mistaken impression about a good equipment dealer. Take your philosophical discussion somewhere else. The post is about a specific dealer not your personal attitude.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[Gravitymaster 0]

I have purchased thousands of dollars worth of gear from Roy since I met him 6 years ago. He has always been a pleasure to deal with, has always given me good prices and has never had a problem honoring a return, cheerfully. I will continue to buy all my gear from him.