handyploy 0 #1 January 16, 2004 aloha im having 130jumps and I'm jumping an aerodyne pilot 150 since my 26th jump. I had arranged a great deal and now i'm the owner of a sabre 120. Is it smart to fly the canopy or should I wait a little? Anyone which had the same experience with downsizing from 150 to 120? Or flight suggestions? Thnx. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #2 January 16, 2004 how much do you weigh? As a blanket response I would say NO NO NO NO! That is a big difference in sizes. There is a lot of speed you aren't ready for yet. Do yourself a big favor stick to what you got for a while. Since you have a Pilot it has got to be very new. Wear it out before you think about going to a smaller canopy. Then when you are done with the 150 you go to a 135 first. Don't go down 2 canopy sizes because you got a good deal. How good will the deal be if you are paying the hosptial all of your money. Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #3 January 16, 2004 Well as you may know currently in Holland you'd need 500 (!) jumps to jump that sabre. I can't say I agree with all of the new rules but there IS a reason for it.... A 120 is a very small canopy! Myself, I'm just going to a 120, with 450 jumps, and a WL of < 1.3 That is also against the new rules BTW but I'm 'grandfathered' or whaddaya call it... Ie I get away with it, but I'm slightly lighter then you are and have a bunch of jumps on 150, 143, 135 and 126 sqft canopies. What I'm trying to say is, you may survive that canopy, you may not, or get hurt.... I wouldn't take the chance.... Stay on the 150 or demo a 135 if you really want to and your instructors say you're ready, but skipping a size isn't smart in any case, and you'd be ending up with an 'advanced' canopy too... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
handyploy 0 #4 January 16, 2004 thanks for your advice. my weight=163lbs which would make a wingload of 1.375 for the sabre. now with the pilot its 1.1 would this make such a great different in straight landing speeds? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #5 January 16, 2004 It's going to make a HUGE difference in decision time. You are going to have to plan your pattern and "outs" in a lot less time on a 120. The landing is the easy part. In ideals conditions you can land just about anything. The question is do you want to cut down your reaction time when faced with an obsticle, off drop zone landing, confusion in the pattern. You have an awesome canopy right now. You can learn a ton on it. If you want to make it go faster, you can learn to be a more aggressive pilot. If you downsize so dramatically, it will take you a lot longer to become the better pilot. Sure you will have a faster parachute, but you won't be a better pilot for it. Good luck, and have fun! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
handyploy 0 #6 January 16, 2004 I must say i can agree with all comment and the fact that the variety of landing conditions are important. For ewample: a 180° right turn on a 150square and a 180° right turn after 1/4 brakes and left toggle up on the sabre120 or something like that, is that equal in altitude loss or is the difference in descent rate so big between 120-150 canopies? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxyroxtail 0 #7 January 16, 2004 It all makes a difference. I weighed 115 out the door when I went to a Sabre 135 with 80 jumps. I had hundreds of jumps on that Sabre before I downsized to Sabre 120. The first thing to ask yourself is "can I still learn new stuff about the 150 I have?" Almost everyone can answer yes to that question (inserting their own canopy, of course). Learn them. Be smart. We've lost too many too soon to too small. Foxy Roxy ________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #8 January 16, 2004 Quotemy weight=163lbs which would make a wingload of 1.375 for the sabre. Is that your exit weight? If not, add about 25 lbs to that number to come with an exit weight of 188 and a wingload of 1.56 on the Sabre and about 1.25 on the Pilot. The wingload on the Pilot is pretty extreme at your level and absolutely INSANE on the Sabre. Hope you've got good medical insurance and lots of free time. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #9 January 17, 2004 since it sounds like you already bought the canopy, just keep jumping your old one for a while. when you finally decide to switch down, try demoing or borrowing a 135 for a few jumps... so at least you go down in steps. keep in mind though, I am not an instructor and I barely have more jumps then you. ask an instructor whos seen you fly, and talk to them. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #10 January 18, 2004 How was the Pilot150? Im planing to order one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #11 January 19, 2004 QuoteHow was the Pilot150? Im planing to order one. I just got in a demo Pilot 150. I'll let you know as soon as I jump it. What is your exit weight? I'm going to Sweden the first week of February. Too bad the weather is S#!+ or I'ld bring demos with me. Do you have a chance to demo one anywhere? I loved the 120 I jumped. They are really awesome parachutes. And the openings...... they sort of just pressurize instead of searching for air and suddenly inflating. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #12 January 19, 2004 Id like to have a P150. Im going to be under 89kgs when I get mine :) I think Im going to skip demo. The delivery time is 10 weeks. It wont be nice weather here before April. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
handyploy 0 #13 January 19, 2004 i jumped the sabre 120 and i was amazed of the difference in flight. maybe it was the size of canopy. i think the canopy (pilot 150) was under-loaded for my 1.1 wingload.;it reacted very slow on toggle. the sabre has a little bit harder opening, a flatter glide and most surprised was my landing. weatherconditions were the same as when i flew my pilot but landing speed in straight flight was almost the same. much more stabile in turbulence and a nice flare. i did a 360 at high altitude and when i came out of the turn i didn't feel a moment of lift. when i came out of a turn on the pilot i created lift and stopped, then back descended which interupts your fun i think. I would say 9 to a sabre and 8.3 to a pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #14 January 19, 2004 Are you talking about Sabre or Sabre2? QuoteI would say 9 to a sabre and 8.3 to a pilot. In gneral or just foir P150 vs. S120? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
handyploy 0 #15 January 19, 2004 sorry i never flew a pilot 120 or anything else that small.. but once i flew an electra from parachute de frances and i must say aerodyne feels more like flying! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #16 January 19, 2004 Quotei did a 360 at high altitude and when i came out of the turn i didn't feel a moment of lift. when i came out of a turn on the pilot i created lift and stopped, then back descended which interupts your fun i think. Hmmm. Speed = Lift. The more speed you have the better the lift. It just sounds like the Pilot had more lift. That is kind of a desirable feature on landings To make a fair comparison, you would have to fly the same wing loading side by side in the same conditions. Some of your observations are directly related to wing loading. In all honesty, it sounds like you really want to jump the smaller canopy and are prepared to justify it because deep down you know your pushing the envelope more than just a little. I know the comment will probably piss you off. In fact, I have had that effect on people before. But I have also made the same comments for years. And just when I think I sound like a broken record and hesitate to offer my advise, someone smacks the earth and I vow to never hold back my advise in regards the appropriate path of a good canopy pilot. As a "professional" in the skydiving industry, I feel that I have a certain obligation to this community. So there you have it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #17 January 19, 2004 Currently the lead time is about 8 weeks. When we ship to Europe, it takes about 3 - 5 days. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #18 January 19, 2004 Listen to Gravity girl. She is giving good advice.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #19 January 19, 2004 What you really need to ask yourself is "How long will this 120 make me happy? Am I going to want to downsize again in 100 jumps?" If you even have the slightest inclination to answer yes, then you need to step back and ask yourself what you want to be doing in ten years. I say this because if you head down that road, in ten years you may not be doing much. Believe that I know this from personal experience. If you do this, it is not if you get hurt, but when. Please prove me wrong. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
handyploy 0 #20 January 19, 2004 hey man... I just posted a reply to which someone wanted an answer. About the canopy brand-size-wingload, doesn't matter its just the average difference that i felt between the 150 en my new 120. Like I mentioned back here I didn't flew an aerodyne 120 or a sabre 150. so all i'm offering him is my opinion on flight. If someone has another opinion I can understand but please if its not my subject, reply to his subject and offer your experiences, that might help them instead off arguing about that 120. I'm definitely not a wacko who tries to break his neck and yes I have just 130 jumps but I started jumping a 150 almost right after aff-course. In some conditions like the dropzone where I go jumping, you'll have lots of terrains and fields outside the dz big enough to land a 747. Low turns=no front risers =no I feel very safe under this canopy and I don't want to fly backwards on a 150 with a wingload of 1.0 in windy conditions like we always have in belgium. I love to see swooping but i'm definitely not gonna try it unless I have a number of jumps,know my canopy and learn basics. I've seen also some pretty bad incidents happening at my dropzone, and i know its not the right thing to do. I'm a realist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
handyploy 0 #21 January 19, 2004 i was talking about the sabre 1. For you I can also tell you its downsizing too fast. If I calculate your wingload you're way too high. It depends on what you have flied before. Your first canopy? did you jump demo's? How did that felt? where you comfortable with it? For your first canopy dont go too big(it will soon suck) and don't go too small. There is a difference between a fury 220 from the club which I jumped during aff-course and a 150. For your weight I would say 170. But hey its your choice. Consider your choice wisely and listen to other jumpmasters and buddies who saw you flying and landing it. If your dropzone is in the middle of a forest, be aware that landing outside could happen and know your altitude loss under that canopy. Be smart, be safe but trust yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #22 January 20, 2004 Quotehey man... I just posted a reply to which someone wanted an answer. About the canopy brand-size-wingload, doesn't matter its just the average difference that i felt between the 150 en my new 120. Like I mentioned back here I didn't flew an aerodyne 120 or a sabre 150. so all i'm offering him is my opinion on flight. If someone has another opinion I can understand but please if its not my subject, reply to his subject and offer your experiences, that might help them instead off arguing about that 120. I'm definitely not a wacko who tries to break his neck and yes I have just 130 jumps but I started jumping a 150 almost right after aff-course. In some conditions like the dropzone where I go jumping, you'll have lots of terrains and fields outside the dz big enough to land a 747. Low turns=no front risers =no I feel very safe under this canopy and I don't want to fly backwards on a 150 with a wingload of 1.0 in windy conditions like we always have in belgium. I love to see swooping but i'm definitely not gonna try it unless I have a number of jumps,know my canopy and learn basics. I've seen also some pretty bad incidents happening at my dropzone, and i know its not the right thing to do. I'm a realist. I'm sorry if my tone seemed argumentative. That is certainly not what I was feeling as I sat here typing. I just want to be clear that you cannot make an accurate comparison with such dramatically different canopy sizes. And in regards to your wing loading. I have based my comments on your weight: Quotemy weight=163lbs which would make a wingload of 1.375 for the sabre. now with the pilot its 1.1 Now is that your body weight? Because if it is, then your exit weight is about 180. It makes a bit of a difference. Of course it's your body, your choice. But don't fool yourself when you say, "I don't do low turns or front riser turns." If that is the case then you most certainly should not downsize! What is going to happen when you need to do a low evasive maneuver? You are going to loose a LOT more altitude than on the 150. But if you haven't figured out on the 150 how to perform this maneuver and walk away, then it is going to be increadibly more difficult to survive it on the 120. At some point you WILL HAVE to make a low turn. Best to going through all of these learning experiences on the bigger wing. Again. I am not trying to argue. Believe me if I was, the wording would be a lot different! I am just trying to share some knowledge to make you a better pilot and keep you in one piece. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #23 January 20, 2004 Thanks for your pieces of advices. Our BSR is 1.35 in my cat. That means exit wieght of 91Kgs. Ill do everythng to go under it, By the time I get it Im going to be <75Kgs (net).I think Im going to have enough pressure to reach my goal. That will be my second. My first was a Merit170. On the 3rd jump I got 4 broken lines, Ive choped and it was recovered after several month.... Yeah our club is in the middle of the forest :). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetpig 0 #24 January 20, 2004 It sounds like you are getting pounded on by the masses here, so I don't want to spend time reiterating the points already presented, so I'll share my feelings on a different subject. I hate when someone takes advantage of a skydiver with relatively low number of jumps, by giving you a "Great Deal" on a piece of equipment. I'm assuming you are talking about a Sabre 1, which mind you was a great canopy when it was originally designed back in 1989 14 years ago. Now I'm not choosing one brand over another, even if you were trading in a Sapphire2 for Sabre you'd be taking a giant leap back. The Pilot/Sabre2/Sapphire2 all incorporate 10-14 years of advanced technology over the canopy you just got a "Great Deal" on. Dude, I can get you a Wicked deal on a T-10 Charlie, I think I could possibly let it go for say....$300! Sorry for bustin your stones, but you shoud go punch the guy who sold you that Sabre in the throat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
handyploy 0 #25 January 20, 2004 My first experience with that 'oldie' was rather good. The canopy has been sold from someone stopped jumping and for long time in a bag. It has a complete reline and the ZP feels like new. I don't care if its made back in the nineties, it flies great! There are better old-timers than my new car I bought back in 2000... To me it was a great deal, now I can sell my pilot for almost the whole price I've bought it and invest it in other stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
