Cutaway Rig

[mr2mk1g 10]

Does anyone know how I can go about renting/begging/borrowing a 3 canopy cutaway harness?

I'll be out in Perris over easter with a load of friends and we were wondering if we could find one in the states somewhere and have a couple of practice chops on it.

[vt1977 0]

Relative Workshop had one at Eloy for the boogie if that helps…

Vicki

[John4455 0]

I needed on for my tandem rating. Strong has a 3 canopy rig called the Strong Tridem.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[Mak 0]

Just a thought - I believe the USPA regulations said you needed a C licence before doing an intentional cutaway (I haven't checked recently). I notice you're not a US jumper, but you may want to consider the risks of jumping with a more complex system and get some advice before doing it.

[diablopilot 2]

I have a system that will let you jump deploy and cutaway a third canopy from most sport rigs, but you can't freefall with it. Just hop n' pop, or IAD. I usualy just get out on my back and deploy from my chest.

I do know someone who has a 3 canopy rig, but haven't talked to them in a while.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billbooth 10]

If you're going to take the risk of an intentional cutaway, you should at least use a rig that closely simulates the real thing. That is, a cutaway rig with all emergency handles in the same places they are on your normal gear. Otherwise, what are you learning?

[diablopilot 2]

Not much, if your intention is to simulate a cutaway.


On the other hand if your intention is to test a canopy you are not sure can be landed safely, or want to just have a bit of fun, the system I have works well.

One fun use I've put it to is to lead a canopy "flock" with the cutaway main hooked up backwards. Of course I've also landed that main backwards. BTW diving linetwists are a very interesting malfunction to kick out of when the canopy is hooked up backwards.

I've also jumped some older designs with it just for fun, such as a P/C. I know of a Thunderbow I'd like to try out as well, just haven't had the chance.

The freefall capable cutaway rig I've seen and jumped ufortunately did not have a "standard" cutaway system for the first canopy. The only system I've seen like that was a two harness system with a chest pack (containing a round) as the backup reserve. I'm not interested in jumping that system unless I can find a chest pack that can hold a 120 sq ft or bigger "square" reserve.

I've seen one, but I don't think it was "legal" (not that that would stop me. The rigger who built it is one of the best I've seen, but I seriously doubt he'd build one for anyone. I guess I might just have to wait untill my harness machine skills are up to par. Shouldn't be more than a few years.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 4]

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If you're going to take the risk of an intentional cutaway, you should at least use a rig that closely simulates the real thing. That is, a cutaway rig with all emergency handles in the same places they are on your normal gear. Otherwise, what are you learning?

If the system is not well thought out ensuring clean cutaways on both 1st and 2nd. canopies, things can get real exciting real fast. You should also have a safety person who is completely familiar with the system for "pin check" and to ride up with you. It is not something to take lightly. Anytime you get rid of a "perfectly good" canopy there are risks. jmo
Sparky

PS: If the rig is not TSO'ed, it takes a master rigger to jump it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skydiverek 63]

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If the rig is not TSO'ed, it takes a master rigger to jump it.

Can a Master Rigger jump any non-TSO'd rig in US, or does it only applies to special applications like cutaway rigs?

[billbooth 10]

I believe that only a manufacturer, or his representative, can jump a non-TSOed rig. In fact, it is required for a manufacturer to jump a new (not yet TSOed) rig to get it TSOed in the first place. When you jump the Relative Workshops cutaway rigs, it can only be done under our supervision. I know of no "TSOed" cutaway rigs. TSOs are very expensive, and there is simply not enough demand to justify the cost of TSOing one. This is a rather "gray" subject, and possibly open to other interpretations.

[riggerrob 643]

While working at Rigging Innovations I built a couple of cutaway rigs for the Canadian Army "Skyhawks" parachute display team. It seems that the Skyhawks enjoy scaring the audience by doing intentional cutaways during demo jumps.
Like Bill Booth said, cutaway rigs are complicated and best left to professionals who have rehearsed all possible scenarios.

[diablopilot 2]

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This is a rather "gray" subject, and possibly open to other interpretations.

I've never seen one, but I understand RWS's cutaway rig is a standard V3 with a tershiary chest mount attached? One of the gray areas would come from the intended use of each canopy. If the chest mount were attached in a way that did not affect the construction of the harness, or attached via a seperate harness (not TSO'd) and if the chest mount were to be used as the "throwaway" main there is no conflict with the FAR's or TSO's. Or at least thats the way I read it.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 4]

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This is a rather "gray" subject, and possibly open to other interpretations.

I've never seen one, but I understand RWS's cutaway rig is a standard V3 with a tershiary chest mount attached? One of the gray areas would come from the intended use of each canopy. If the chest mount were attached in a way that did not affect the construction of the harness, or attached via a seperate harness (not TSO'd) and if the chest mount were to be used as the "throwaway" main there is no conflict with the FAR's or TSO's. Or at least thats the way I read it.

The system I have used in the past was a TSO'ed torso harness under the test item harness/container. A chest mount is attached to the torso harness. It is not the most comfortable, but my last chance is on a harness that is not part of the test.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[peek 21]

mjosparky wrote:
The [intentional cutaway] system I have used in the past was a TSO'ed torso harness under the test item harness/container. A chest mount is attached to the torso harness. It is not the most comfortable, but my last chance is on a harness that is not part of the test.

Gary:
I developed one that is exactly the opposite.

The first canopy is attached to a harness that is worn under your normal rig. It is made from an old conventional system harness and has a container for the cutaway canopy attached to the rings where the belly reserve used to be attached.

The cutaway canopy container has bungee cords to retract the flaps so they don't interfere with the handles on your normal rig.

You do a sit-fly type exit and deploy. When you cutaway you have your normal rig and its two parachutes.

Just like Sparky's arrangement, a bit uncomfortable, but rather straightforward. It also looks kind of wild, but when you study it a bit, it all makes sense.

The cutaway harness releases are inboard of your normal rig's harness, so this would not work well for someone with a very narrow rig, like a small person.

An advantage of this system is that if you abort the cutaway canopy deployment, you can just flip over and deploy your normal main.

We have used everything from a Para Commander to my Stiletto 150 in it (different containers), and used both spring loaded pilot chutes and throw-outs.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

The Golden Knights have the same sort of demo that I witnessed at Rantoul. They pack/sew the first canopy to streamer upon deployment, the GK chops it, and flails for a few seconds before they deploy the second main.

I talked to one of them - it is a special designed rig with three mains on the back, with a very complicated deployment system. No matter what, they have to deploy the mal'd main first, chop, the the 2nd main. If they deploy the middle/2nd main first, it will mal (I forget the reason why). The GK I talked to told me he did that on accident a few times during training and had to chop that and go to the reserve. The reserve can be deployed at any given time, and in any order.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[hookitt 1]

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If they deploy the middle/2nd main first, it will mal (I forget the reason why).

The 3rd parachute container, covers the standard main parachute container. If you deploy the standard main pilot chute, the result is the a pilot chute in tow. The way to get rid of it is to say 'Oh Bugger" then deploy the test main resulting in a 2 out situation.

From this point you can cutaway and pull the reserve normally.

I've recently seen a nice addition to a cutaway rig.

2 BOC pouches.
One for the test main pilot chute. (left hand deploy)
One for the regular main pilot chute (right hand deploy)

The Test main BOC was held shut the same way a student BOC is held on.

The cable that holds the Test pouch shut is attached to the Standard main pilot chute.

If in fact you deploy out of sequence (the standard main Pilot chute first), the pouch for the test main will fall open allowing the pilot chute to deploy.

This will result in 2 parachutes out instead of the Pilot chute in tow from previous designs.

So simple... yet so affective.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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If they deploy the middle/2nd main first, it will mal (I forget the reason why).

The 3rd parachute container, covers the standard main parachute container. If you deploy the standard main pilot chute, the result is the a pilot chute in tow. The way to get rid of it is to say 'Oh Bugger" then deploy the test main resulting in a 2 out situation.

From this point you can cutaway and pull the reserve normally.

.

Yup - that's it, I remember now. Thanks!

Don't suppose you remember who made that rig for them?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[hookitt 1]

The rig from my post was built by the owner.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[billbooth 10]

Just remember, if you jump a non-TSOed rig, and get hurt, your pilot could lose his license, at least in the US.

[mjosparky 4]

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Gary:
I developed one that is exactly the opposite.

More often than not I am testing a complete system, that is the harness/container and the canopy. Thus the reason for my last hope canopy being attached to the torso harness.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[hookitt 1]

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Just remember, if you jump a non-TSOed rig, and get hurt, your pilot could lose his license, at least in the US.

I wasn't too clear with my earily post. The Rig was TSO'ed. Only the main container and main risers, were modified by the owner of the rig. Flaps were added as a second Main contaner covering the actual main container.

billbooth, does that modification void a TSO?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[billbooth 10]

It's a "gray area" as to whether such major modifications to a container system affect the TSO. This would probably have to be determined on a case by case basis. Problem is...who makes that determination?

[skr 1]

> If you're going to take the risk of an intentional cutaway

Hi Bill,

I've noticed in other posts that you seem to discourage
intentional cutaways and I was wondering why.

Is it the fear of all the makeshift ways people might do it,
or ... ?

I have thought many times that it would be good if somebody
(like maybe you :-) :-) would design a cutaway rig and
that we then develop the custom that somewhere in their
first few hundred jumps almost everybody makes a cutaway
or two.

Besides the chills and thrills for the young and restless,
it would de-mystify cutting away from a malfunction.


My first piggyback (Crossbow - mid 60's) had built in to
the main lift webs places for separable D-rings and I did
a number of cutaways and learned a lot, as well as acquiring
some good jump stories.

It seems like a well designed system and some procedures
and everybody having a chance to do a couple in calmer
circumstances would be a good idea.

Skr

[billbooth 10]

Yes, I am worried about makeshift cutaway rigs, used with little or no training. I am worried that there will be more fatalities from a lot of people trying a cutaway on these rigs, than there will be from actual emergencies. The FAA stopped spin training in airplanes years ago, because more people were dying from spin training that were dying from actual spins.

I have made three cutaway rigs that jumpers can use, only under Relative Workshop supervision, for the purpose of trying out the Skyhook RSL. They will be available at DeLand, and some of the larger meets. I think Strong also has a few cutaway rigs they will let people jump under their supervision.

I won't make a "for sale" cutaway rig because TSOing it would cost too much compared to the number I might sell...And the chance of fatality from careless use is simply too great.

I believe cutaway procedures should be practiced often, from a suspended harness if possible, to develop the "muscle memory" necessary to make the real thing go as smoothly as possible. I don't think one "live" cutaway is nearly as good training as multiple cutaways from a suspended harness...and suspended harness training carries no risk..unless you're a real klutz...in which case you shouldn't be jumping anyway.

[alan 1]

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Yes, I am worried about makeshift cutaway rigs, used with little or no training. I am worried that there will be more fatalities from a lot of people trying a cutaway on these rigs, than there will be from actual emergencies. The FAA stopped spin training in airplanes years ago, because more people were dying from spin training that were dying from actual spins.

I have made three cutaway rigs that jumpers can use, only under Relative Workshop supervision, for the purpose of trying out the Skyhook RSL.

I've been out of the tandem game for several years now so my memory may be off, but at the time I got my rating (Strong), I thought a pre-requisite by both RWS and Strong was at least one cut-away, either an actual emergency or simulated on a rig with a tertiary reserve.

Was this ever the case or am I wrong? If it was a pre-requisite, is it still? If so, why?

alan