crzjp20 0 #1 January 9, 2004 So i was looking at a raven for my first rig, as a reserve, however i have been told that they can be jumped as a main. Hs anyone done this? and if so how did it handel and how was the landing? Thanks guys, just a new boy tryign to learn....-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #2 January 9, 2004 I have jumped ravens as mains and reserves, Keep the wingloading at .8-1 or lower and they work fine. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #3 January 9, 2004 Just remember that if it is jumped as a main, it is no longer suitable to be used as a reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #4 January 9, 2004 QuoteJust remember that if it is jumped as a main, it is no longer suitable to be used as a reserve. IIRC, Precision was okay with a reserve being jumped once as a main before being used as a reserve. I know a few people who always put one jump on a Raven before packing it as a reserve... they wanted to make sure it didn't have a built in turn (as many Ravens do). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #5 January 9, 2004 ok so really stupid question now.... what is a built in turn? Is it like when you open and you are thrown off your heading?-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #6 January 9, 2004 >>Is it like when you open and you are thrown off your heading? << It is like when your canopy turns without toggle or harness input. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #7 January 10, 2004 I guess that I why I am not a fan of Ravens *** they wanted to make sure it didn't have a built in turn (as many Ravens do). that would be aking to buying a car that has a propensity for breaking down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #8 January 10, 2004 Heya Peaches : I've got 2 seasonal seasons and 150 jumps on a ragged out Raven main in a 20 year old racer (it's my BEER rig) loaded at about .95:1. As a student I flew Manta 288's and Cruiselites (also a 7 cell F-111 design) and the Raven was really intended as a one season 'save me the rental costs' rig. It's still with me, but as soon as I have the $ for a fresh main it will be retired. Once Upon a Time, a Raven was a High Performance canopy. That time, however, was in the late 80's. If you talk to anyone who was an experienced juper back then you'll find out that there is nothing wrong with the canopy as a first rig. It is much like comparing a 1985 Mustang to a 2004 Mustang, though. That is to say, the old stuff will do everything you need it to but it will take far more work and skll to get to "modern" performance standards. Also, like buying an older car, condition is very important. Caveat emptor, let your rigger or DZO lok at the rig first. My Raven thumps me on opening (I destroyed a slider and dinged the grommets on another one) so my rigger built a bigger slider and then installed a pocket too. Now I can pack it like a reserve and it will still open crisply or I can "Sabre" pack it and it will actually snivel half the time. My Raven handles, using toggles, much like any other big 7 cell - think Minivan or Volvo station wagon.... boxy and safe. But, once you have the basics down, with good coaching you will be able to find that 10% leftover performance that nobody ever looks for. I'm talking about things like learning to stall it fully/completely (think backwards flight and the pilot chute flying in FRONT of the canopy!!), learning riser control and the stamina required to riser a big 7 cell (it's a bit of a brute), maybe even some elementary Canopy Relative Work. Now the criticism...: Everything you've read about the crappy flare is true - on a relative basis. At 0.95:1 and nearing 1,000 jumps, I don't dare do a braked accuracy aproach anymore - it just loses lift and pounds me in. In my wide-open 1 Cessna DZ I have learned never to use the toggles except to flare - I fly the pattern on front risers (again, get coaching) to keep my speed and lift up. Mine flies dead straight and has only opened in line twists twice in all the jumps I've made. The Modern equivalent of this canopy is the Spectre. Whereas I fly the Raven 2 (220 ft) at nearly 1:1, I demo'd a Spectre 170 and it just felt soooo familliar - except that the opening was soft, the riser pressure was a bit lighter, the turns were faster, and the flae just never gave up!! I actually had an off-DZ landing on an unfamilliar DZ and sunk the thing in in 1/2 brakes at 1.2:1 and still had flare leftover. I think that the flare power of PD canopies in general are the industry standard. If you've found a rig that is cheap and fits you well, but has a Raven as a main, I'd buy it with the idea that the main is worth about $200 US in the cost of the rig. Don't overload it (try staying at 0.8:1 unless you don't mind some hard-ish landings) and plan to demo a Spectre at about your Century jump... if you can wait that long. Wthin limitations, I am firm believer that it is far better to learn on "challenging" equipment because it forces you to learn to fly rather than just how to write a big cheque. When you get your new gear in a season or two, you will be a more well-rounded canopy pilot than someone who's always had "the best". [Think of how many expensive sports cars are written off by rich kids who find that their driving skills cannot match the performance of the flashy car]. Remember that unlike writing off a fancy new car, crashing a fancy new parachute almost certainly carries serious injury consequences, if not worse. Don't trust your life to something un-airworthy, but don't dismiss learning the same way that your coaches did 10-15 years ago! Dave PS: my standard joke on DZ (where many people have Raven reserves that only their rigger has ever seen) is to borrow their rig "so I can see what my parachute would have flown like when it was new". And, no, I've never been silly enough to pull silver just for that experience - but it's a good line. That and "Every jump I make is a Terminal Reserve Ride" Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #9 January 10, 2004 The big picture here is why jump a canopy that isn't going to fly as well or last as long as a zero-p canopy? If it's because you found one cheap then realize that you'll get what you pay for and it'll be a soggy mess on landing."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #10 January 10, 2004 guys thanks for the info very informative, keep it coming its the only way ill learn.-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beej 0 #11 January 10, 2004 QuoteThe big picture here is why jump a canopy that isn't going to fly as well or last as long as a zero-p canopy? why.. - it's cheaper than a zp, therefore more accessable to a 'limited funds' new jumper, not everyone can afford a zp. - not lasting as long as a zp shouldn't be an issue if all the Raven is for is the post period of 100 jumps or so after student status. As long as the F111 porosity isn't shot. - the above is null and void of course if you have loads of money :) QuoteIf it's because you found one cheap then realize that you'll get what you pay for ..agreed - but thats not always a bad thing.. Quoteand it'll be a soggy mess on landing. ..not sure about the soggy mess part ..lol...mine flares like my falcon did, one stage flare - just time it right. edited to add: dterrick's post is thorough - good post. ---------------------------------------------------- If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #12 January 10, 2004 QuoteIf it's because you found one cheap then realize that you'll get what you pay for and it'll be a soggy mess on landing. I bought a raven for 200 bucks a couple years ago. Lines were fine, It flew and landed well. I loaned it out to a much larger person than I am so he could practice for a tight demo, he sunk it in dead center in the peas. If it's not ragged out and that's what ya got, then it's a pretty good parachute.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdC 0 #13 January 10, 2004 My main is a Raven IV built in 1989. I bought it used and I have no idea how many jumps it has on it. The price was right. It gets me down. I'm still learning the flare with it but it is coming along. For a first canopy before you buy something else, it is a good choice. Big Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #14 January 10, 2004 The Raven and Raiders are good first choices as a first main. You'll be happy with it for the first 100 jumps (one season) or so and it gives you time to explore your other future main canopy options while skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #15 January 10, 2004 QuoteThe big picture here is why jump a canopy that isn't going to fly as well or last as long as a zero-p canopy? If it's because you found one cheap then realize that you'll get what you pay for and it'll be a soggy mess on landing. The material a canopy is made of does not determine how well they will fly. It will make a difference on how long they will fly well. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #16 January 10, 2004 how longwill a canopy like this last? like number of jumps...-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #17 January 10, 2004 Quotehow longwill a canopy like this last? like number of jumps... I jump an F-111 type canopy and get 6 to 8 jumps out of them. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #18 January 11, 2004 QuoteQuotehow longwill a canopy like this last? like number of jumps... I jump an F-111 type canopy and get 6 to 8 jumps out of them. Sparky DA, I ment to say 6 to 8 hundred jumps.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #19 January 11, 2004 yeah i figured that, thanks-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
