new pilot rig help....

[linestretch 0]

I was asked to purchase a new pilot rig for the DZ and would like some advice. I'm leaning towards a Softie ONLY because I have packed a few of them before. If you could help with;

1. preference of rig and why

2. a good source for purchasing one

thanx.

my pics & stuff!

[payback462 0]

without a doubt get the p-124 aviator.
http://www.rigginginnovations.com/products/aviator.html
its kickass!
its comfortable, its square, its bulletproof (hell id take it to terminal!) and most importantly (since ya know theyres not too many burning planes falling out of the sky) its COMFORTABLE!!!

its not as easy to pack as a softie, but definetaly not any harder then a sport rig. (not too different either)

[MichaelBess 0]

Call Dan at Para-Phernalia, Inc. Toll Free: 800-877-9584 http://www.softieparachutes.com/

He is a great guy to deal with here in Washington. Tell him I said hello.

[linestretch 0]

oh yeah, another thing, not a square. These guys are old and just fly.

thanx though.

my pics & stuff!

[MichaelBess 0]

Check the following link to assist you in determining what you need. Consider size as well...

http://www.softieparachutes.com/html_files/choosing_a_parachute.html

[mjosparky 4]

http://www.softieparachutes.com/html_files/choosing_a_parachute.html
Clicky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rainman 0]

From the Rigging Innovations site:

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The canopy opens with the reliability of a ramair, but flies with a lift/drag coefficient which is more closely related to its round shaped cousins

With my extremely limited knowledge of round parachutes, it sounds like this canopy combines the worst properties of rounds and squares....

Edited to correct spelling mistake

Rainman

[riggerrob 643]

Order an Aviator - with the 2900 square foot canopy or a Softie with a big (i.e. Raven 282) square.
Having worked for both companies, I may be a bit biased towards squares for pilots.
As for landings ... several times - during the human phase of drop tests - I landed Aviators hands off in the toolie bushes of Elsinore. Dusted myself off and walked away. That same technique would have broken my leg on the 28 foot C-9 canopies I jumped as a student.
Aside from more reliable openings and softer landings, squares also offer pilots more options for landings. In Guam, that means landing on the beach under a square as opposed to landing a round in the surf, or in Oregon, landing in a meadow instead of handing up in trees.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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1. preference of rig and why

p-124 aviator with a PD reserve (yes it's legal). Square reserve, new technology container.

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2. a good source for purchasing one

Container form RI and reserve from PD or shp around PD dealers.

If I needed a bail-out rig, that is what I would buy.

Derek

[PhreeZone 20]

I thought one of the advantages to the P124 canopy was that it was designed for hands off landings? Are the PD canopies that can be installed be set up the same way?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I thought one of the advantages to the P124 canopy was that it was designed for hands off landings? Are the PD canopies that can be installed be set up the same way?

I believe the "hands-off" landing technique is to simply leave the brakes set.

Even if the manual says no substitution of components is authorized, it up to the assembling rigger to determine compatibility. The manufacturer cannot overstep the FAR's and require the P-124 canopy any more than they could you to wear a pink jumpsuit when using their equipment. The Vector II label states that the rig is only compatible with the Safety Flyer reserve. If the manufacturer could state that, then putting any other reserve into a Vector II would be a violation of the FAR's and void the TSO. But it isn't.

Derek

[councilman24 37]

I usually recommend Sofites, but I'm a dealer. The FFE Preserve V is available for big guys. Actually I recommend what fits the purpose best. I pack for a bunch of warbird and aerobatic pilots. In your part of the country either get a Softie direct or from http://www.pia.com/silver/. Allen's web site has a couple of used/demo rigs for sale. Might check those out.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[linestretch 0]

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The FFE Preserve V

Not sure what sorta canopy this is, can anyone elaborate?

my pics & stuff!

[councilman24 37]

Free Flight Enterprises (FFE) makes three round emergency parachutes that are the factory stock parachutes used in Softies by Paraphernalia. The Preserve I is rated for upto 220lb (used to be 240lb), the Preserve III for up to 180 lbs and the new Preserve V currently rated for 275lb @ 150 knots. It's been tested faster but currently is rated as above. It's for the horizontally endowed pilot. It uses a bag deployment with break ties, line hesitator tubes and sacrificial bridle stitching.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Quote

1. preference of rig and why

p-124 aviator with a PD reserve (yes it's legal). Square reserve, new technology container.

Quote

2. a good source for purchasing one

Container from RI and reserve from PD or shop around PD dealers.

If I needed a bail-out rig, that is what I would buy.

Derek

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Derek,

Why the foul attitude towards Precision P-124A canopies?
I am biased in favor of P-124A canopies because I test-packed most of the Aviator prototypes, worked on most of the heavy-weight, high-speed drop tests, did 5 live jumps and wrote the packing manual.
The "hands off" landing of the larger P-124 canopies is a function of the steering line configuration. Steering lines on the 290 are tied to connector links at the 3/4 brake position. I have landed it down, hands off several times, with nothing but dust to show for my bungled landings.
The 290 also has extra control lines - leading to steering toggles - that provide limited control range. Yes, those steering toggles are good for steering, but they do not contribute much to flaring, or to be precise, the steering toggles only contribute to flaring at far higher altitudes than senior skydivers are used to. Oh, wait a minute, junior jumpers instinctively flare about five times higher than healthy. Guess what, you have to flare P-124A-290 about 5 times higher than normal to make a difference!
In my experience, the P-124A-290 lands so softly that flaring contributes more to amusing the jumper than any meaningful reduction in rate of descent. Besides, at 12.1 feet per second, the 290 lands so much softer than any round canopy (18 feet per second with a 28 foot C-9) that flaring is not a big issue. As for comparative rates of descent, we all know that the amount of energy disipated in any landing is a function of the square of the velocity, so when you land a P-124A-290, your legs only have to disipate half the energy of a C-9.
The other novel feature of the P-124A-290 steering lines is that they provide an easy pull to shoulder level, then a dramatic increase in tension below shoulder level, which is fine. Since pulling the toggles to shoulder level gets the canopy as close to stall as you ever want to go, there is nothing to be gained by pulling toggles below your shoulders.

P-124A canopies in the 212 and smaller have conventional steering lines that result in a stall when you pull them below your waist line.
The only logic that I can see to the smaller versions of Aviator is an appeal to the egos of pilots who are also skydivers. When canopies get much smaller than 230 square feet, canopy volume decreases at a slow rate, but container bulk does not decrease, so you end up with essentially the same total volume.

In conclusion, yes the P-124A-290 is a boring canopy to steer, but if I have just wrecked an airplane, I want a boring parachute.

[riggerrob 643]

linestretch,

What type of airplanes are you operating in Guam?

Seat/butt interface can make a huge difference in which style of pilot emergency pararchute (PEP) harness/container you buy.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Why the foul attitude towards Precision P-124A canopies?

Because I have flown, packed and thrown away the Raven-M's (I threw away a MR-109-M w/ the type-III line attachment point tape).

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I am biased in favor of P-124A canopies because I test-packed most of the Aviator prototypes, worked on most of the heavy-weight, high-speed drop tests, did 5 live jumps and wrote the packing manual.
The "hands off" landing of the larger P-124 canopies is a function of the steering line configuration. Steering lines on the 290 are tied to connector links at the 3/4 brake position. I have landed it down, hands off several times, with nothing but dust to show for my bungled landings.
The 290 also has extra control lines - leading to steering toggles - that provide limited control range. Yes, those steering toggles are good for steering, but they do not contribute much to flaring, or to be precise, the steering toggles only contribute to flaring at far higher altitudes than senior skydivers are used to. Oh, wait a minute, junior jumpers instinctively flare about five times higher than healthy. Guess what, you have to flare P-124A-290 about 5 times higher than normal to make a difference!
In my experience, the P-124A-290 lands so softly that flaring contributes more to amusing the jumper than any meaningful reduction in rate of descent. Besides, at 12.1 feet per second, the 290 lands so much softer than any round canopy (18 feet per second with a 28 foot C-9) that flaring is not a big issue. As for comparative rates of descent, we all know that the amount of energy disipated in any landing is a function of the square of the velocity, so when you land a P-124A-290, your legs only have to disipate half the energy of a C-9.
The other novel feature of the P-124A-290 steering lines is that they provide an easy pull to shoulder level, then a dramatic increase in tension below shoulder level, which is fine. Since pulling the toggles to shoulder level gets the canopy as close to stall as you ever want to go, there is nothing to be gained by pulling toggles below your shoulders.

I browsed the manual, but only found the instructions for setting it up with steering toggles.

The PDR has a better flare, you can flare it past your shoulders, past your waist, and it doesn't stall. You can flare it high, and if it is a large enough canopy, it will sink it and land softly. I prefer the construction of the PD over the -M.

The Aviator/PD-R combo is just what I would do if I needed a bail-out rig, based on my experiences.

Derek

[PhreeZone 20]

Would you still recommend the same combo to someone thats never been under a parachute before?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Would you still recommend the same combo to someone thats never been under a parachute before?

I would recommend the Aviator w/ the PD-281R that has a 300 lb max weight for a pilot that has never been under a parachute before.

Edit: If that would fit in the largest Aviator. If not, then the largest PDR that would fit into the largest Aviator.

Derek

[linestretch 0]

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hat type of airplanes are you operating in Guam?

Seat/butt interface can make a huge difference in which style of pilot emergency pararchute (PEP) harness/container you buy

It's a brazilian Bandaranti(?). Twin turbine low wing, with no cockpit doors. The pilot would have to be pretty lucky to be able to get to the back of the plane and leave before impact. My biggest concern was the thickness of the rig. The pilots (right now anyway) are fairly tall, and if the rig is over 3" thick, there may be issues of the guys feeling like they are being pushed off the end of the seat. I'm pretty sure we are going to stick with getting another round. But thanx for the ideas on the squares.

my pics & stuff!

[riggerrob 643]

If space is an issue, then buy a container that is 1/2 inch thick at the bottom and 2 to 3 inches thick at the top. Both Butler and Rigging Innovations build rigs that size, while a good rigger can "cheat" while packing a Softie to get the same dimensions.