Re: [Frodo] Knowing When to Pull

[TomAiello 26]

Frodo wrote:

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BTW a question about delays. I just don't want to create a new topic for it. How do you decide when to pull? By sight (or "when you get scared"), or do you count seconds in freefall, or do you have something audible on your helmet?
And a question aabout tracking, or better say, out-tracking the cliffs. I'm watching this video called "Arch - marc" maybe you guys know it (the file name is "archv.ram"), and it looks like the guy out-tracks the ledge (or maybe it's called talus, sorry for my english) by mere feet. So how do you decide whether to go for it or not? During the fall? If yes... damn, I should probably just get used to it... I mean, skydiving is ok with me in terms of risks, BASE looks ok too, but doing this kind of stuff - just "go for it" not knowing if there ever was a theoretical possibility of success... thats too much for me yet.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

I've moved this in from the "2 PC's" thread. ~Tom Aiello

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How do you decide when to pull? By sight (or "when you get scared"), or do you count seconds in freefall, or do you have something audible on your helmet?

Im a newbie,counting seconds and whatching the ground to learn the visual.I think counting is good while you do slider off or low slider up.If you get enough alti you could use an audible,but havnt seen anny(they would then be inside the helmet rigth)so far.
Im scared each time i jump.. thats what atracts me..sweading in my hands,nuervus the mental figth and so on..

about Tracking.. no idea,ive only been above 600ft once(looong climb)and there i want chiken on my first stowed and took aprox 3,5-migth 4 sek from 900ft.. so no tracking there..

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[motherhucker 0]

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How do you decide when to pull? By sight (or "when you get scared"), or do you count seconds in freefall, or do you have something audible on your helmet?

The wind in your ears is usually a good sign that there is a planet moving towards you at a rapid rate.
When you see the planet, don't worry, you'll pull.

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So how do you decide whether to go for it or not? During the fall? If yes... damn, I should probably just get used to it... I mean, skydiving is ok with me in terms of risks, BASE looks ok too, but doing this kind of stuff - just "go for it" not knowing if there ever was a theoretical possibility of success

With few exceptions, IMHO, a BASE jumper needs to have decided on silly things like what's going to happen on thier jump BEFORE his/her body leaves the object. Generally speaking, the people who "just go for it" are on the short list of those about to go in.

[base570 1]

I just "eyeball" it on most slider-up jumps (200 or so) especially terminal jumps. I have found it to be the best and most accurate way for me. Ground rush rocks!! Others that I know watch the lights on "A"'s, watch the horizon, or count. It's all about what works best for you. On my slider-down jumps (200 or so )I almost always do some sort of internal counting in my head. Audibles, I believe, are a way to get you killed in BASE. They just aren't as accurate as we need them to be.

Peace
Naked BASE #15

[TomAiello 26]

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How do you decide when to pull?

99% of the time, I eyeball the ground. This is an essential skill to learn, because sooner or later you're going to find yourself in freefall, getting low, racing toward the ground, and wanting to get stable, or out of traffic, and then you're going to need to know if you can afford the time it'll take, or if you need to pitch immediately.

I just haven't seen any other method that approaches the safety of the good old Human Eyeball method.

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..."when you get scared"...

The best "scared" method is, reportedly, "wait until you get scared, then count to two (this should take around a quarter of a second), then pitch."

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...do you count seconds in freefall...

Counting rarely works. Everyone counts at a different speed, and each person counts at different speeds under different circumstances. When comparing video to "counted" delay, almost no one gets it right even as much as half the time.

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...audible on your helmet?

I wouldn't trust an audible. The air pressure can change enough to alter the "ground level" on the audible, even if you are using a fast method (helicopter or elevator) to get to altitude. If you are doing a multi-hour hike, forget it. I've seen free fall computers fooled into thinking a BASE jumper had opened below ground level. If you rely on the audible in this situation, it would never go off--and you really would open underground.

Put it this way, if you had an audible set for 500 feet, and it hadn't gone off, but your eyes were telling you "pitch now or die!", would you calmly wait for the audible? If not, I don't recommend trusting it to tell you when to pull (and say, taking your eyes off the ground). Remember that not looking at the ground has caused several relatively recent fatalities.

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...out-tracking the cliffs...So how do you decide whether to go for it or not? During the fall?

Of course. When else would you decide? The night before? What if things looked really bad in free fall? Would you still stick to that pre-exit decision to go for it at all costs? Sounds like a good way to make your last jump, to me.

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If yes... damn, I should probably just get used to it...

In all seriousness, WHY?

Why do you need to get used to it? You'll be a whole lot safer if you don't ever get used to being in freefall, at terminal velocity, within 100 feet of a solid object, or within a few hundred of the ground. There is no reason to ever get used to such a thing. You can easily live a long, happy life without ever putting it so senselessly at risk.

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I mean, skydiving is ok with me in terms of risks, BASE looks ok too...

The level of risk in BASE is vastly greater than that of skydiving. If skydiving risks are ok, that definitely does not mean that BASE risks are ok, too.

If you really want to BASE jump, be sure to have a look at The List. Keep in mind what I wrote here (see Section 2, "Make the Decision"), and remember Crimpfiend's words:

"We're all on Nick's List - we just don't know what order."

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Faber 0]

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The best "scared" method is, reportedly, "wait until you get scared, then count to two (this should take around a quarter of a second), then pitch."

Be aware about its a slider up or down jump

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Frodo 0]

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Why do you need to get used to it? You'll be a whole lot safer if you don't ever get used to being in freefall, at terminal velocity, within 100 feet of a solid object, or within a few hundred of the ground. There is no reason to ever get used to such a thing. You can easily live a long, happy life without ever putting it so senselessly at risk.

I was meaning getting used to the fact that people might take risks way beyond my understanding. I guess everyone just has his own border between calculated risk-taking and having max fun, and - insanity, foolishness and certain death. There's no way I can convince my relatives that "making a skydive is less dangerous than driving to the dz"

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If you really want to BASE jump...

Every day I'm more and more sure in that.

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...be sure to have a look at The List.

Yeah, by the time you said that I've read it about 3 times, and the articles too... BASE is definitely a borderline sport -- no matter how skillful and cool-minded you are, from time to time you run quite a chance of dying.

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"We're all on Nick's List - we just don't know what order."

I easily believe this. Maybe I can't yet accept it - must get into the situation to find out.

I hope I didnt' offend any jumpers here by talking of what I really don't know... I'm just trying to understand the whole thing.

[Dd0g 0]

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I was meaning getting used to the fact that people might take risks way beyond my understanding. I guess everyone just has his own border between calculated risk-taking and having max fun, and - insanity, foolishness and certain death. There's no way I can convince my relatives that "making a skydive is less dangerous than driving to the dz"

Yes, some jumpers do take risks that are much higher than what most other BASE folks would consider acceptable.

That said, new folks often don't have the knowledge to know what jumps they watch are really risk and which ones might look "risky" but are well within the comfort zone of a given jumper.

As an example, slider-up low pulls (below, say, 250 feet) are very risky. A hessie will put the jumper into the ground with not much open. Skill can moderate this risk a bit, but skill isn't going to change the fact that hessies happen and will eventually happen in a low pull, causing death.

Many other types of jumps would be risky for an inexperienced jumper, but for someone with the skills to do it (and the currency to be sharp) that same jump might well be within the bounds of normal BASE risk.

While many of us will say we're not really into BASE to chase the bleeding edge of risk. . . there's also no denying that being on the cusp of a jump that one knows is at or beyond that risk edge is an exciting feeling. The butterflies in the stomach, the sharpened senses, the feeling that time is slowing down. . .

However, having things go wrong when one has stepped up to the edge of the envelope is generally not much fun and can make us wonder about exactly how comfortable we are with risk. "Do or die" jumps should be exciting, not routine. When the become commonplace due to high currency or simply the accumulation of experience. . . it's a good time to lay off jumping for a bit and let the risk meter recalibrate a bit.

Like, when any canopy ride longer than about 10 seconds seems like an eternity, that might be a good time to be sure one's risk calibration is properly set.

. . . not that I'd ever do any of that "risky-type jumping," mind you. I'm all about safe and sane.

Peace,

D-d0g

+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

[Faber 0]

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I guess everyone just has his own border between calculated risk-taking and having max fun, and - insanity, foolishness and certain death.

It rigth and it moves all the time.in one way or other.
Take an example:
While i started skydiving, i saw BASE jumpes as insane and stupied(sorry i did at that time),there were no way i could see a pull under 3000ft.To day im a newbie BASE jumper and skydiver(which only is under my canopi at dz at 2000ft becours its a rule).Some of the things i have seen in BASE is still insane to me,but found out we all have our limits,and we are all inviduals that need to risk maneg it for our self and deside if its a go or not.

This means that i think somthing like this:
We all make desisions,an i respect others,while its their choise.Theres no way i ever could say ill never do that(unless its talking fatal or injury for itself),migth not now but who knows what the futur brings.as long I feel okay what im doing,its okay by me

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]99% of the time, I eyeball the ground. This is an essential skill to learn, because sooner or later you're going to find yourself in freefall, getting low, racing toward the ground, and wanting to get stable, or out of traffic, and then you're going to need to know if you can afford the time it'll take, or if you need to pitch immediately.
[/QUOTE]

How do you recomend someone starts to learn altitude awareness at such low altitudes? Do you think under canopy in a skydiving setting correlates to a BASE setting? Obviously the speed of descent is different, one youre descending a parachute, the other youre freefalling off an object, but is this something you should keep in your mind as youre landing a canopy? (i.e. *check altimeter, final leg, OH this is what 200 feet looks like, study study study). You think this is worth it?

(is my question clear? Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly?)

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[andy2 0]

D-dog wrote, [QUOTE]"Do or die" jumps should be exciting, not routine. When the become commonplace due to high currency or simply the accumulation of experience. . . it's a good time to lay off jumping for a bit and let the risk meter recalibrate a bit. [/QUOTE]

Can you please explain your reasoning with the above comment? I have it as a goal for myself in anything I do to do it consistently and safely, with a high level of currency if possible. Isn't taking a break when you feel too current hindering your abilities to grow as a BASE jumper? Maybe you're making some higher point with this or alluding to something I can't see, but I can't see how making a jump riskier makes the jump better. I'm curious to see where you were going with this..

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Dd0g 0]

Perhaps I am not really expressing my thoughs effectively, and for that I apologize. I find it hard to put into words, but I know many other jumpers who have experienced this situation in their own jumping.

When I am very current with my jumping (which comes from having done over 10 jumps in, say, less than 7 days time or so), the technical aspects of jumping become pretty second-nature. Packing, exit, canopy flight. . . all are so current that little energy goes into thinking about them.

When I'm this current, I start to expand the types of jumps I'll do - generally, taking more risk. Open a hairy object, freefall something that I've only static lined before, take a jump a little deeper, add aerials, etc.

A few times in my career, however, I've felt like I was simply getting immune to having a gut feel for the risk of these types of jumps. Not that I was ignoring the risk - logically, I could still analyze it fine. However, in a more emotional sense I just could not "feel" the risk. Standing at exit, the whole process had become so routine that it seemed no more unusual than driving a car.

This state scares me.

When I find myself in this state, I have decided that I'll back off my jumping a bit and let things settle down. Too many times, while in this state, I've pushed just a bit too far and in hindsight wondered at how my gut-check of excess risk didn't kick in.

Anyhow, that's another attempt at defining the subject at hand. Perhaps there are other jumpers reading this that have (or have not) experienced this, and can share their thoughts.

Fear exists for a reason; when we transcend fear (even temporarily) in an objectively risky thing like BASE, there is a risk that we assume danger that, while logically perhaps acceptable, really isn't acceptable from a more holistic perspective.

Peace,

D-d0g

+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

[andy2 0]

thanks D-Dog! I totally understand where you are coming from. I've downhill biked for a few years now, and while it may not be as scary as BASE jumping, after a few days straight of doing runs that edge of fear is lost and you find yourself maybe pushing the proverbial envelope a little too hard for your own good. Thanks for taking the time to clarify to me and other readers, peace

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[TomAiello 26]

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How do you recomend someone starts to learn altitude awareness at such low altitudes?

By making repeated jumps from the same object, taking progressively deeper delays. It's very easy to do this at several legal objects. Just try adding a half second on each jump until you're as low as your comfortable with. But, be warned: if you get to the point that you're slamming into the water with the slider above the links, stand down--you've reached D-Dog's "risk acclimation" point.

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Do you think under canopy in a skydiving setting correlates to a BASE setting?

Nope. There's really nothing much the same as learning to eyeball from freefall. Standing on things at various heights (i.e.
stop when you're 500 feet up the tower, look down, and memorize "this is what it looks like when I pull") is the closest I've come to a dry run for altitude awareness.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com