BASE gear - ethics question

[BBKid 0]

Okay, I'm ready for some flaming here, but I have a serious question.

What with people working or living in high-rise buildings being nervous about possible collapse or fire these days, I'm sure you've seen ads for executive emergency parachutes etc. I read a report that concluded that about 95% of people using one of these systems would be killed as a result.

So here is my question: if you knew someone in this situation who was prepared to try one of these systems in an emergency, with the other alternative being to jump to certain death, would you advise them to get a proper BASE rig (with static line), which, in my opinion, would be more likely to work and would be equipped with a modern square canopy?

I realise there is a problem involved in handing out specialist gear to people with no training or experience, but if they're going to trust a dodgy ex-military round, or just jump 100 storeys to avoid death by smoke inhalation, what's the harm?


Also, if the manufacturer wouldn't sell one to them for some reason, would you order it for them?
Just a hypothetical question.

Nick
---------------------------
"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[Faber 0]

First off all i think you should reverse what you said,it would then say somthing like this"apoox 5%would survive instead of dying"

I think that if you sell ordenary BASE gear instead of these eskapesystems,i think only aprox 2,5%would survive..The reason is that thouse who would by this normaly dont know how to stear a ramair canopi.

No i would not buy such a thing to any one.I think people will use it before finding out if there were another alternative.

for myself personaly... i wouldnt use such unless i were 99%sure i would die,unless its just for testing the system from an Brigde or so...

That just me,im a newbie and dont know much about the system.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[flyinryan 0]

Personally I think a round would be better for the average Joe. The lack of stearability would be one of it's best assets. Imaigne what would happen if you had multiple escape canopies in the air and you could stear, how many collisions do you think you would have? The other issue would be off heading openings, with a square I think the odds of a building strike are VERY high, bad body position + the fact that these folks probably are not going to react properly in the event of an off heading (which I think the bad body position would pretty much guarentee on a square).

Now, I agree that if there were only a 5% survival rate that would be great if the survival rate were 0% for the alternative. But what happens when Executive Joe panics and jumps from a situation that had better then 0% surviavability?

For the most part I belive the 5% survival rate of the building escape systems would be WAY less then waiting for rescue workers or walking out of the building.

But hey, BR is cool. If they can make some money in the insurance game, good on them.

BASE 853

[BBKid 0]

Quote

The lack of stearability would be one of it's best assets.

This was something I heard about as well, but it can also be a problem in instances of fire, such as at the WTC. The heat creates rolling turbulence similar to that experienced at some DZ's around midday, albeit to a greater extent, so a non-steerable round could e flipped straight back into a building or another person under canopy. That's not to say it wouldn't happen with a square, just that steerability would be something I would like.

I've only got three normal skydives, and am not even thinking about me and BASE in the same sentence, but I know for sure I would rather use something that could glide away from a collapsing object than just descend straight through the path of any falling objects, but I practise front and rear 180 riser turns on all but my first jump, just to see how they work.

Nick
---------------------------
"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[wmw999 2,545]

I haven't seen this particular building escape chute, but there are rounds that are both steerable and have forward speed.

Even a modified flat circular canopy has a forward speed of at least 2-3 mph. That's the same as walking. Not as good as running, but a whole lot better that straight down.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[flyinryan 0]

This is more on the lack of stearability/ lack of forward speed. What follows is just my opinion...

Having had off heading openings that have left me facing the object I can tell you this, my training saved my life. Can you imagine what someone with NO training is going to do if his canopy opens and he is flying towards a building? Do you know how fast they are going to have to react if they have a ram air canopy that they staic lined off of a building? So not only will they have to react, but they will have to react properly without the benifit of training/drilling on skydives.

So all in all I would say a round is the way to go.

BASE 853

[covey 0]

My question when I read this post is. Would it be in the interest of some of these companies, including BASE, to give a training course when they sale a escape rig. That would solve some of the problems. I know if I had a company that made these devices there would be a course. It seems to me that they are leaving themselves open from a wuffo family lawsuit. I could see a family saying they thought there loved one was safe because he bought the escape rig. I guess the other side to this is how many people would be willing to do jump training if they didn't have the fire up there butt.

Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide

[Fireflyer 0]

You might be interested in this: http://www.executivechute.com/

The specs are here for the ol round chute, that seems to drop pretty quick from "125ft" (wow!):
http://www.executivechute.com/products.html

And call me a newbie, but if you are in a position to have the corner office on the 99th floor, you have the $ to look into proper training, and hopefully have the knowledge that this cheap chute isn't the answer. But, hey, I dont have the fancy office!

[hookitt 1]

Oooh that looks some what brutal. It appears that the jumpers arms and legs are tied so he's braced for impact.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

If you knew someone in this situation who was prepared to try one of these systems in an emergency, with the other alternative being to jump to certain death, would you advise them to get a proper BASE rig (with static line), which, in my opinion, would be more likely to work and would be equipped with a modern square canopy?

Nope. I'd advise them to get gear built for the job, like BR's HOPE rig (the only one I've personally inspected).
More broadly, I'd advise anyone who was really that nervous about it to find a different office or apartment. Parachutes as life saving devices in these situations are, in my opinion, a joke. You'd be much better off with 500 feet of static line and a rappel device--and it'd be cheaper too. Plus, everyone in the office could use the rope, instead of starting a "survivor's brawl" for the last parachute.
I saw a company that had started offering emergency winches, with cable decelerator evacuation systems, for high rises. That makes about a thousand times more sense than using parachutes.
Using parachutes is attention grabbing, could make headlines, and might make some money for some good folks. But in general, there are far more sensible ways to deal with this problem.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

I haven't seen this particular building escape chute, but there are rounds that are both steerable and have forward speed.
Even a modified flat circular canopy has a forward speed of at least 2-3 mph. That's the same as walking. Not as good as running, but a whole lot better that straight down.

Most of the building escape rigs are using non-steerable PDA (pulled down apex) rounds. They inflate fast and land soft, and aren't meant to be steerable. In general, they're the same systems used as reserves by hang- and para-gliders.
I know the HOPE system is a single riser set-up--very little steerability there.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[wmw999 2,545]

Yeah, I went and looked at their website later (the really lazy wait for a clicky link). They'll sell a few so that folks can have a false sense of security and a true sense of superiority. In the unlikely event someone actually escapes a building with one their sales will go up dramatically, whether or not it was necessary. But I'd put that pretty low on the likely tree.

Wendy W.
(who still has a 20' round in one of her rigs)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Fireflyer 0]

HOPE chutes: http://www.aerialegress.com/

[cobaltdan 0]

tom,

i agree that parachutes are not a viable means of emergency escape from highrises. imo companies like executivechute are unethical and their product in use would result in killing more people than potentialy save. i was interviewed by 20/20 in the empirestate building as was supposed to be executivechute, but they were thrown out of the building for pitching scare sales to people entering the building. it was an interesting sceen, that upset many people.

btw. we manufacture a huge number of apex down rounds as paraglider reserves. in general the design is ment to be a second canopy out. meaning you deploy it in addition to and without cutting away your failing paraglider. these canopies tend to oscilate and having 'line laundry' out stabilizes them.

sincerely,

dan
atair

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[covey 0]

Hey this post got me to thinking about a way to have a legal B. Go to the top floor of the B and start a fire in a trash can. Yell fire loud several times to start the panic. Then simple jump out the window.Get on the ground and praise your emergency escape chute to the people on the ground. Try this at your on risk of course.

Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide

[feelopen 0]

I can't help but be sort of skeptical about this page:

http://www.executivechute.com/letters.html#Built%20On%20Proven%20Technology

It seems to be that false sense of security issue - testimonials regarding paragliding saves are nice for selling paragliding reserves, but isn't the deployment going to be much different for a static line next to a building, not to mention all the oblects you can hit on the way down.

Besides, I've seen so many websites offer "testimonials" for their products that are just plain made up by the programmer. I'd like to see people's full names and place of residence under testimonials like those, I think it would help the credibility of their claim.

Does anyone know about how many of these escape systems have been sold?

Blue Skies,

CP

[cobaltdan 0]

executivechute said on camera that they couldnt live jump test the canopy because of faa restrictions. they showed dummies being static line jumped off of a crane. (and what looked like a sure double femur landing). they are full of #@%! and the reason we wrote an article on ethics and parachutes.

sincerely,

dan

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)