gus 1 #1 December 15, 2003 I'd always thought that risers stiffened where the top of the brake toggle goes in to its elastic keeper would be a good idea - to make it more difficult for the riser to flex and pop the toggle. Then I noticed recently that my Gargoyle's risers have exactly this and maybe other BASE risers do too. Is it overkill for skydiving risers or is there another reason that it's not done? GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #3 December 15, 2003 Did you see, how mirage's risers have this sorted out. toggles can't be popped by riser. The riser would easier go over the toggles than release them."George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #4 December 15, 2003 QuoteDid you see, how mirage's risers have this sorted out... Again, bulk. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #5 December 15, 2003 so true, but bulk vs. safety. it's almost like cool vs. safe. I chose safety... That's why i have the heaviest rig on the dz (among the smallest rigs of course), but the safest too i think."George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #6 December 15, 2003 Quoteso true, but bulk vs. safety. it's almost like cool vs. safe. Unless that extra bulk is causing a problem with safety...like forcing riser covers open, or catching up the slider grommet on a hard opening because of the extra bulk. Both of which I've personally seen happen on Mirage rigs with the new style toggle keepers. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #7 December 15, 2003 I figured it would come down to style vs safety . QuoteDid you see, how mirage's risers have this sorted out. I haven't, no. Can you explain? GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 334 #8 December 16, 2003 I was having the occasional popped toggle, either after opening or by knocking it when steering with my rear risers just after opening. I had the elastic replaced with new/tighter elastic, while getting a line set replaced, and have had zero popped toggles since then, in ~160 jumps. The elastic is tighter than originally, if I can recall that far back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #9 December 16, 2003 My buddy just recievced a new set of mirage risers and I could get the toggle to pop in my hands with only a slight flex in the direction they would go over your shoulder. He sent them back. It seemed the the bottom toggle keeper held tighter than the top one and because they went in opposing directions, there was no slack to allow and flexing of the riser. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #10 December 16, 2003 QuoteUnless that extra bulk is causing a problem with safety...like forcing riser covers open how can extra bulk at toggles force riser covers to open. when packed correct, toggles are at the bottom of reserve sides, and nut under tuck tabs, where bulk would cause a problem. Quoteor catching up the slider grommet on a hard opening because of the extra bulk. What do you mean by that, i can pull my slider over my toggles without a problem, so i guess toggles don't catch my grommet? QuoteMy buddy just recieved a new set of mirage risers and I could get the toggle to pop in my hands with only a slight flex in the direction they would go over your shoulder. He sent them back. How can that be? the toggles are not over you shoulder but at the sides of the reserve. so they are not bent but straight, and safely covered with riser covers. and even if you would bend them over the shoulder the way it's supposed to be packed (toggle is turned down, when over shoulder, not up right?), the toggles would be even more firmly tucked, because upper and lower part would be squeezed together, so i don't see how is it possible to pop the toggle by bending the riser. you can see the toggles here http://www.miragesys.com/order/parts/toggles.html The one that i'm talking about are on the left. They are tucked from above and from below, so no matter in which direction they are pushed (by slider or wind) the stay tucked, unles you pull them. Well that's my opinion. If anyone doesn't like them so be it, it's your opinion, and mine opinion is mine. "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #11 December 16, 2003 I know once packed they are straight, but the ease that they popped on the top was the problem. Any handling of the riser could have caused it to pop. Even grabbing the risers on opening. The bottom keeper was tighter causeing the top one to give way first. Personally I think the bottom keeper is almost unnecessary, except for keeping the toggle from flapping around. The top of the toggle is what must be secure. I dont know why they made the bottom so tight. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #12 December 16, 2003 Hey man, you're entitled to whatever opinion you want, but it's certainly possible to have any and all of these problems occur on the magic Mirage risers, I assure you. Riser length determines where the toggles lay in the pack tray. Shorten the risers, and the toggles move up in the pack tray...eventually running into the riser covers. It doesn't take much to start applying pressure on the riser covers either. Sometimes as little as 2 inches of change can be a problem. There are other ways this can happen as well... With the extra bulk of the Mirage style double tuck toggles, the slider grommet that came down further than it was supposed to and twisted slightly was lodged tightly against the toggle... The toggle couldn't be freed, not could the slider be easily moved. The jumper was able to free it eventually, but it took quite a bit of time, and probably wouldn't have occurred on a less bulky set-up. The fact is, there are several different styles for just about every part or piece of a rig. Some look better than others...some are marketed better than others...some simply are better than others. But this is all based on your experiences and frame of reference. No one is telling you what to believe, but you'd be a bit of a fool not to at least acknowledge that there are things that can happen that you a) may not have heard of or b) may not have had happen to you personally. Keep an open mind. You'll live longer... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #13 December 16, 2003 Keep an open mind. You'll live longer... Ain't that the truth. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
