Overloading Manufactors specs

[PhreeZone 20]

Do you as a rigger do anything if you know that the reserve you are repacking is going to be overloaded by the customer? On the Raven-M 135 canopies it states the Max landing weight is 182 pounds at sea level. If you had a 200 pound person that gave you the rig and you know that they will be intentionally breaking the placard weights do you say or do anything about it?

Would you refuse to repack it?

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[Jimbo 0]

Sounds like more of a job for the S&TA, than the rigger. The canopy is TSOd to 254 lbs, right?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
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[Hooknswoop 19]

From PA's web page:

"Certification of the Raven Dash-M Series under Federal Aviation Administration Technical Standard Order C-23d was issued for all eight models of the Raven Dash-M Series in January 1997, and the canopy design is now in full production."

The minimum certified weight for TSO 23D is 220 pounds/ 150 knots. The maximum landing weight isn’t the TSO’d weight. It is the maximum weight the manufacturer recommends for the canopy.

Overloading Ravens and Raven-M's is a very bad idea due to their flight and landing characteristics.

All that being said, if the customer is overloading their reserve, not your problem. You may want to advise them of the issue, but your responsibility ends there. You could refuse to pack it (or any other reserve) if you wanted to, but they are likely to simply go to another rigger.

Derek

[skybeergodd 0]

I've had this discussion several times with other riggers and I do know of riggers who refuse to pack them and I know of a DPRE who happens to also be a DZO and he goes as far to not allow someone to jump their gear at his DZ if they are overloading their reserves. I agree with the comments made that if you won't pack it then the customer will just find someone who will. I just make a note on their rigging receipt and the manufacturers recommendations.

[Jimbo 0]

When do you consider a reserve to be overloaded?

Is it when the suspended weight is greater than the max suggested weight of the manufacturer? Or is it when the suspended weight is greater than the weight that the reserve is TSOd to? I'm not a rigger, but the way I understand it is that one might cause a less than optimal landing, the other might destroy the canopy on opening.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[skybeergodd 0]

That is a good question and it can be a grey area still.....If the jumpers weight is over the weight that the reserve is TSO'ed for then it's definitely overloaded.....but different manufacturers use different recommended weights.PD for example now uses different weights for different experience levels. Now what makes a jumper an expert over advanced is still subjective. Some manufactures are alittle more conservative on recommended weight than others are. Basically if a jumper weighs more than the reserve was TOS'ed for then I don't wanna pack that and will recommend a larger reserve but if they weigh more than the manufacturer recommendations I will educate them on the recommendations and let them use that info however they see fit.

[tombuch 0]

It's a common problem, especially with experienced skydivers jumping tiny mains packed into tiny containers. There is often not enough room available for a reserve to meet the recommended size for the jumpers weight.

As an S&TA I like to discuss that issue with beginners when I learn of it, and likewise discuss it when I know somebody is looking to buy a rig with a small reserve. I don't really bother discussing it with jumpers who have lots of experience because they have the ability to self evaluate those kinds of issues.

It is an important issue that should be addressed by dealers when the gear is being sold, but it probably isn't in many cases.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[riggerrob 643]

I burned out on this issue many years ago - back when I specialized in pilot emergency parachutes. None of those pilots were interested in listening to a MERE rigger tell them why they should not wear a low-speed parachute in a high speed airplane, so I just shut up.
Trying to tell pilots anything about parachutes was like wrestling with a pig: no knowledge transferred!

Trying to tell experienced skydivers that their reserve is too small is an equal waste of time.

[andy2 0]

would it affect your decision if you knew the reserve was overloaded but you thought that the customer could handle the WLing from prior experiences?

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[DJL 235]

I'm not a rigger, but I would like to be one at some point.

What is wrong with refusing to pack someone's gear if you think their reserve is too small or doesn't meet some criteria, either by the mfr or otherwise. I think a rigger has a moral obligation to do the right thing rather than give up and pack it anyway.

Tom, please do be burned out about this. Refusing to pack a pilot's gear might just put it in their head that they're not being safe. Refusing to pack a jumper's gear will do the same thing. Yeah, they'll just go to someone else, but when an accident report comes out and the manufacturer claims that this gear was overloaded, at least it won't be your name on the card. Let's be the better people (roll "We are the World") and not let an accident happen rather than rely on historical data that it hasn't happened yet. I often hear that skydiving equipment has been tried and tested via a method of failure and success. I think that's garbage. People are capable of forseeing a problem. Most will just not react until something bad has happened.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[rigging65 0]

As a rigger, you're not the S&TA (unless, of course, you are ). You (the rigger) are a technical operator charged with maintaining a product as dictated by the FAA and the Mfg. of the gear. That is where you're actual responsibility stops. It needs to be within spec. when it leaves your shop, that's it. BUT, part of being a rigger is also being better informed and more knowledgeable than the average Joe. To that end, IMO, you have the moral responsibility to tell your customer that you're concerned that s/he's over the weight limit.

Now, the real person getting screwed here is the pilot. If you read up on it, the Pilot in Command is responsible for all the people on the plane, as well as their equipment. That means, if you're out of date and get into the plane, you're risking the pilot's cert. It also means that if you're over the limit on your reserve (the legal limit) then you're putting the pilot at risk in the event of a ramp check. Not a very cool thing to do to the guy that's taking you to the top floor, is it?...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

What is wrong with refusing to pack someone's gear if you think their reserve is too small or doesn't meet some criteria, either by the mfr or otherwise.

As a rigger, you may refuse to do any work you don't want. There's nothing in the FAR's that compels a rigger to accept work; Only that the work they perform meets certain standards.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken