Hooknswoop 19 #1 December 12, 2003 I just opened a rig that had been assembled and packed once since new. It is a Talon FS 3.0, PD-143R and a Cypres2. I found several things wrong with it. Some are no big deal, some are; -2 of the 4 Rapide link were backwards (barrel nut to the outside instead of inside). -Rapide links were not lock-tite’d or torque stripped. -No slider bumpers on the Rapide links. -The steering lines were finger-trapped but there was no knot and they weren’t bar-tacked. The toggles would probably have come off in the jumper’s hands. -The toggles were not matched up on the Velcro, leaving some of the hook Velcro exposed. -The Velcro on the free-bag wasn’t lined up, leaving some of the hook Velcro exposed. -The pull force on the reserve (seal removed) was 25 pounds. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #2 December 12, 2003 Quote-2 of the 4 Rapide link were backwards (barrel nut to the outside instead of inside). -Rapide links were not lock-tite’d or torque stripped. Neither of these two issues are addressed, as per the newest edition of a PDR manual, IMO, the barrel nut on a link should always face down and be to the outboard side of the riser. The reason for this: the link is more likely to stay tight, and gravity is not assisting it in "un-spinning", rather, gravity can only help keep the nut tight (as stress is put on the link, then relaxed, gravity actually does have an effect on the nut). Having them outboard means that, should the link shatter in the threads (where it normally does), the separating link will most likely still have the nut attached. The nut will serve to (hopefully) retain the lines on the link. This means that you're not going to lose one line...then another one...then one more...as you're flying along. The broken threads on the other end will (again, hopefully) snag the riser and help keep the link in place. What this comes down to is that you're more likely to loose the entire riser group at once, as opposed to over time...as you're getting closer to the ground and running out of time to cutaway safely. No mention is made anywhere in the Assembly section about using loc-tite or a torque stripe. I'm not saying these are good ideas, but you can't technically be "wrong" by not doing them...according to PD's manual. The other issues, as you said, are no big deal, but, IMO, they do show a lack of pride in work. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 December 12, 2003 Quote-2 of the 4 Rapide link were backwards (barrel nut to the outside instead of inside). -Rapide links were not lock-tite’d or torque stripped. QuoteNeither of these two issues are addressed, as per the newest edition of a PDR manual, IMO, the barrel nut on a link should always face down and be to the outboard side of the riser. The reason for this: the link is more likely to stay tight, and gravity is not assisting it in "un-spinning", rather, gravity can only help keep the nut tight (as stress is put on the link, then relaxed, gravity actually does have an effect on the nut). Having them outboard means that, should the link shatter in the threads (where it normally does), the separating link will most likely still have the nut attached. The nut will serve to (hopefully) retain the lines on the link. This means that you're not going to lose one line...then another one...then one more...as you're flying along. The broken threads on the other end will (again, hopefully) snag the riser and help keep the link in place. What this comes down to is that you're more likely to loose the entire riser group at once, as opposed to over time...as you're getting closer to the ground and running out of time to cutaway safely. I prefer to have the link installed long end on the riser, barrel nut to the inside(Poynter’s Vol II, Page 108). The long end on the riser allows the link to fit better, reducing the chance of it being side-loaded. The barrel nut to the inside keeps it away from the slider grommets. I’m tired of fixing dented, burred slider grommets. QuoteNo mention is made anywhere in the Assembly section about using loc-tite or a torque stripe. I'm not saying these are good ideas, but you can't technically be "wrong" by not doing them...according to PD's manual. The PD manual used to specify a ‘match mark’ and ‘locking compound’ (Poynter’s Vol II, Page 109). It does specify thread lock for links (PDR manual, 2002, Page 32). FWIW, Page 50 of PD’s 2002 Reserve Manual shows a picture of the links with the barrels to the inside and long end on the risers. QuoteThe other issues, as you said, are no big deal, but, IMO, they do show a lack of pride in work. Actually, I don’t think the torque strip or the mis-matched Velcro on the toggles is a big deal. I do think everything else is. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #4 December 12, 2003 QuoteNeither of these two issues are addressed, as per the newest edition of a PDR manual, Doesn't the harness/container manual take precedent over the canopy manual?alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #5 December 12, 2003 QuoteActually, I don’t think the torque strip or the mis-matched Velcro on the toggles is a big deal. I do think everything else is. I'm sorry, you're totally correct. I didn't re-read the "rest" of the screwups when I finished that post. The velcro is no big deal, but the bartacks an heavy pull certainly are. Like I said, IMO, it's a lack of pride thing when people don't do something so simple as mating velcro properly. QuoteIt does specify thread lock for links (PDR manual, 2002, Page 32). That's interesting. I see where it says to "clean off any excess thread-loc...", but no where does it say to actually apply it! I guess you can't clean it off without applying it, huh? Hmmm... QuoteFWIW, Page 50 of PD’s 2002 Reserve Manual shows a picture of the links with the barrels to the inside and long end on the risers. Yeah, that was pointed out to me...but again, no where does it actually say "in and up". And there is at least one other diagram that looks "out and down" to me. (PDR manual, 2002, Pg. 32). It has the steering line (at least it appears to be a steering line) to one side (which one might assume to be the outboard side) and the barrel nut to the same side. It also appears that the longer side of the shank is "up" in that pic...meaning it would be "out and down". I wouldn't argue that the pic could be totally the opposite of what I've said, but without written information it's pretty vague. I guess that means they don't care, huh? On a personal note, one of the worst things about being a rigger in a big shop is the amount of shoddy work you see come in from other places. I'm sure we see something monthly (if not more often!) that just isn't quite right. Scary stuff. Garage rigging can certainly be done well, but it seems it often isn't. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #6 December 12, 2003 There is a form and recommended procedure for reporting rigging errors on the PIA web site. http://www.pia.com/piapubs/TSDocuments/ts-116.pdf I hope either you've addressed the issues with the riggers involved and/or chose to use the process outlined. A couple of those can be preference, depending on what the manuals say, the toggles are life threatening, and the pull force is FAR violation and life threatening. In the past some of the more important incidents have been sent to PIA and the chair of the rigging committee (me at the moment) has followed up with the riggers involved. PM me if you would like.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 December 12, 2003 I am I the process of contacting the rigger, whom I know personally. I'll post his response. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #8 December 12, 2003 QuoteGarage rigging can certainly be done well, but it seems it often isn't. Unfortunately, I've seen some loft work that was less than stellar, as well. Nothing that big - just the "lack of pride" thing, and in a few cases, more of a "this part costs 2 cents less, and is still within specs, even if it bends" thing.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #9 December 13, 2003 QuoteUnfortunately, I've seen some loft work that was less than stellar... Yeah, unfortunately you're correct... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #10 December 13, 2003 Quote-The steering lines were finger-trapped but there was no knot and they weren’t bar-tacked. The toggles would probably have come off in the jumper’s hands. Does the customer get informed of the errors?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #11 December 13, 2003 QuoteDoes the customer get informed of the errors? He will be. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #12 December 13, 2003 Let's prioritize things, from worst to least life-threatening: - 25 pound pull force - steering lines finger-trapped but not sewn - no silicone bumpers - connector links upside down or backwards - sloppily-mated Velcro - no Lock-tite or torque stripes The first two items are protentially life-threatening, while the rest are merely sloppy workmanship. How he was able to close it with a 25 pull force is a mystery to me. Loop lengths listed in the Talon manual are tight enough to get the rig "solid," and will result in a 15-22 pound pull force. Any loop shorter than that requires dramatically more muscle to close. Note: I have never used a "positive leverage device" to close any R.I. product. Steering lines finger-trapped but not knotted or sewn will not kill a reserve-rider, but would slip loose after a dozen jumps on a main. Clearly the offending rigger did not read the manual published by Performance Designs! Connector links upside down or backwards is a minor point. On Type 8 webbing, link alignment makes little difference. However, on thicker webbing like Type 7 or Type 13, I have never been able to make them lay gracefully in any configuration except with the large end at the bottom. Aligning links with barrels inboard is a matter of preventing nicks in slider grommets. I am soooo tired of sanding nicks out of slider grommets! In the end we have two potentially life-threatening errors and a lot of sloppy workmanship. When are junior riggers going to read the f**ing manuals? Rob Warner R.I Customer Service Manager Emeritus and the guy who wrote the Talon packing manual Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #13 December 13, 2003 QuoteSteering lines finger-trapped but not knotted or sewn will not kill a reserve-rider, but would slip loose after a dozen jumps on a main. I did see someone replace their lower control lines and forgot to tack them. One toggle came off on the first jump and he though the line had broken till I pointed out that it wasn't tacked. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayhawkJumper 0 #14 December 13, 2003 what do you mean by no lock tight or torgue stripes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #15 December 13, 2003 I agree with riggerbob but I also think that kind of rigging work should not be on the market. I hope that all other rigs that the specific rigger Ass I&R are not the same - he better check his past rigging. I would like to add more information: #4 metal links are not the best item for Ty.7 & 13 webbing & when they are in use they should be set with long side to riser & short side to lines & the barrel facing the center. Silicone bumper are MANDATORY on PD reserves with #4 links & Fabric bumpers on #5 links. Both methods are in the PD new manual, they keeps the lines centered on the link, keeps the link centered in the riser, eliminates the line loop to move under the barrel & protects the slider grommets from nicks & burrs. The bumpres of both kinds MUST be hand tacked to the links!!! I have seen reserves that the rigger removed the Silicone bumpres or left them without hand tacking. Since we have the SR-1 Reserve Slinks there is no reason to order a new reserve with metal links BUT they should be set according to the instructions & the 1/8" Ty.3 Yellow tab shuold be hand tacked to the riser to insure the SR-1 will not turn outside. The SR-1 are better & stronger then the metal links when properlt installed. (PD new manual) If a rigger change from metal links to SR-1 he must insure that the slider grommets are clean & free from ANY nicks & burrs. Using Loctite & match mark the link is mandatory in the PD old manual & it is in the new manual page 32 above "Slinks" match marl is not in the new manual but is good to match mark the links. *** Loctite & match mark are not a replacement for links inspection at the 120 cycle. Derek, I would not leave the #4 links without bumpers just add the PD bumpers or change to SR-1 Derek, you should call the rigger & EDUCATE him, Rigger ticket is a ticket to learn ALWAYS !!! TIP: When moving links in/out from risers COVER the threads & the nut with GAFFER'S/DUCK TAPE to eliminate any damage to the webbing from the sharp edges of Stainless Steel links, REMOVE after setting or moving out. RIGGING IS AN ART TO BE DONE WITH LOVE & PRIDE. I WISH ALL OF US SAFE RIGGING. HAPPY NEW YEAR FOR 2004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #16 December 13, 2003 Lock tite is a compound that is put on the threads of fasteners to prevent it from loosening up. There is different grades from a light compound to permanent. Rapide links have a habit of loosening up with use. links opening up on opening happens to mains all the time. Torque stripe is a mark put on the barrel nut and link after it is tightened. If the marks are no longer lined up, then the link has loosened up. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #17 December 13, 2003 QuoteDerek, I would not leave the #4 links without bumpers just add the PD bumpers or change to SR-1 I fixed everything. QuoteDerek, you should call the rigger & EDUCATE him, Rigger ticket is a ticket to learn ALWAYS !!! I am trying to get in touch with him. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #18 December 13, 2003 Quote...links opening up on opening happens to mains all the time. Part of my "check Canopy" procedures on opening is to: start at the right top side of the canopy and look down to the links (visually inspect), then the risers at the links to ensure there are no tears, then check the right cutaway cable length, the right 3 rings, then move to the left 3 rings and work my way back up... before I do my steerability checks. Back in the 80s there was a video circulating where a right riser just shredded on opening... I remember thinking, "That would really suck at a couple of hundred feet." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #19 December 13, 2003 QuoteOn a personal note, one of the worst things about being a rigger in a big shop is the amount of shoddy work you see come in from other places. I'm sure we see something monthly (if not more often!) that just isn't quite right. Scary stuff. Garage rigging can certainly be done well, but it seems it often isn't. I have found stuff like Hook has pointed out here coming from the bigger shops with master rigger seals on it. The last time it was reserve brake lines not tied on evenly.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #20 December 13, 2003 QuoteNote: I have never used a "positive leverage device" to close any R.I. product. I would hope not, since I believe you either wrote the manual or played a mojor role in its' development. From: RI-1311-(2) Revision 1.0 12/2/98 page 32 !! WARNING !! T- Bars or "Positive Leverage Closing Devices" are prohibited. Under no circumstances are T-Bars to be used when packing TALON 2 containers. These tools candamage containers and cause impossible ripcord pull forces. I doubt the FS manual varies from this and I know it is in the older manuals. Using a PLCD on most RI rigs would be a violation of tha FARs since it would not be IAW the Mfgr's instructions.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites