NightJumper 0 #51 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe teflon cables are too soft, not just eh one batch that was cracking. According to whom? Since we changed to a different type cable there hasn't been a single return in over two years. QuoteApparently you have to sign a waiver to still get the old style bag. True, but you can still get it. I mean look at all the waivers you sign to skydive, every DZ yo go to, factory tandem instructor, pasenger etc. It isn't like it cost more. QuoteMy issue (overtightening of the closing loops by another rigger or the owner) hasn't been addressed. This I can help you with if you PM me a contact number. I can tell you how to help prevent this. Also if you are at Eloy for the Xmas boogie we will be giving a factory rigging classes on the Racer. We are doing everything we can to provide quality service including free rigging courses for new and existing riggers at our factory and we go to any DZ in the lower 48 for free to provide tandem instructor/rigger training when you purchase our tandem rigs. Things are changing fast, all I would ask is that you keep an open mind. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #52 December 4, 2003 QuoteHe does not name the manufacturer (last paragraph of his post ), but something tells me he is referring to JumpShack... Maybe, maybe not, it's specualation at best but it does seem to indicate that. When I see Bill, I will ask him myself. Until then it's at best conjecture. QuoteWhat's wrong here is that I think Jumpshack used deceptive advertising in these printed ads as well as in "BreakAway" commercials. That's it. But, as you said, we are not even discussing it here... Kind of like guarenteed to make your shirts whiter? or the new X canopy provides longer glide ratios, steeper turns, longer turf surfs than any other canopy on the market? That type of advertising is used in everything from Bleach to Toothpaste in the AD world. Do you honestly think the toothpaste people are deceptive becasue your teeth don't get whiter or your turf surfs don't get longer?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #53 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe difference is two-fold. 1) If the pop top is overtightened by the owner, I will still be held accountable as I have zero defense except, "I didn't overtighten it." I don't know how well that would hold up against the FAA saying, "Your seal is on it, you signed the card, you tightened it, and there is no record of anyone else re-tightening it." As you have already stated any rig is not tamper resistant and can be circumvented. Unless someone can had me a tool or strap that I left in there they would be hard pressed to say I have a zero defense since I record pull force on every rig I pack and I use a digital calibrated certified scale. When I sign and seal a rig I am stating that at that time while that rig is still in my control everything is correct. Or can you quote me a case where the FAA or a civil claim resulted from anyone tightening a rig after it left the rigger or there has been a failure from the same? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #54 December 4, 2003 Ok, tell me why I would want to buy one of your tandem rigs and get the free training/etc. Compare it to a Sigma.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #55 December 4, 2003 QuoteI find the Jumpshack has Better TSO Huh? What are you on about? A TSO is an FAA standard to which a product has to be built to. I don't see how one TSO is better than another? Currently Javelin's are TSO'd under the latest version of that standard TSO 23 subcatagory "d". Are Racers now built under subcatagory "d"?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #56 December 4, 2003 QuoteOk, tell me why I would want to buy one of your tandem rigs and get the free training/etc. Compare it to a Sigma. Sure But since that would be advertising even though you opened the door I'll send you a PM. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #57 December 4, 2003 QuoteWhat's wrong here is that I think Jumpshack used deceptive advertising in these printed ads as well as in "BreakAway" commercials. That's it. But, as you said, we are not even discussing it here... QuoteKind of like guarenteed to make your shirts whiter? or the new X canopy provides longer glide ratios, steeper turns, longer turf surfs than any other canopy on the market? That type of advertising is used in everything from Bleach to Toothpaste in the AD world. Do you honestly think the toothpaste people are deceptive becasue your teeth don't get whiter or your turf surfs don't get longer? There is one small difference here... We are talking about lives here, not Hollywood smile. If your teeth don't get whiter you don't die... On the contrary, if you cutaway at 100ft with Racer (and even RSL), cause the ad implied you can safely do so, the probability that you will die is very high. I know you should not cutaway that low, but some less informed people could make that choice based on what the manufacturer told them (in the ad). . Let's say you get out of wrap, your canopy is not landable, you look at you altimeter, you are at 100ft, 64ft figure flashes in your memory, so you go for it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #58 December 4, 2003 QuoteOk, tell me why I would want to buy one of your tandem rigs and get the free training/etc. Compare it to a Sigma. That would be another thread topic, Dave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #59 December 4, 2003 QuoteWell the same could be said if someone had a hard or no pull because of pull weight( Like the girl who went in on film trying to pull her reserve handle(javelin). Test showed it had a 50 lb pull weight) If the user or someone else abuses or otherwise causes the system to not function properly your seal will still be on the container. Unless I am mistaken, your seal being on the reserve container is verification that you(the person who packed the reserve) are certified to do so IAW all applicable regulations. Once that rig leaves your control your responsibility is ultimately determined by the investigation if there is an incident and it can be unequivocally attributed to the person who packed the reserve. IE: dude goes in because he cut away and his reserve didn't deploy because the rigger left a piece of equipment around/in/on the reserve. Otherwise you shouldn't be liable for anything and I'm sure even the greenest of lawyers could prove that point if it even got that far. This does bring up some interesting questions about riggers responsibilities not just in talking about Racers but for all rigs in general. Right, but on a Javelin, if the pull force is too high, it is the rigger's fault, as the only way to increase the pull force on a Javelin is to replace the the closing loop with a shorter one. This means the seal would be broken and the rigger would not be held responsible. I can test the pull force before giving the rig back. It would also mean it was intentional. The seal need not be disturbed on a Racer to tighten the closing loops, and can be done unintentionally by the user. I have no way to protect myself from this. I do not feel protected from liability if the owner overtightens their closing loops on a Racer. I do feel protected if someone attempts to tighten their closing loop on other rigs (except the Reflex). Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #60 December 4, 2003 QuoteLet's say you get out of wrap, your canopy is not landable, you look at you altimeter, you are at 100ft, 64ft figure flashes in your memory, so you go for it... ROFLMAO If you look at your altimeter and you are at a 100ft you don't even have time to react. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #61 December 4, 2003 A very valid point, Mike. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #62 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe teflon cables are too soft, not just eh one batch that was cracking. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to whom? Since we changed to a different type cable there hasn't been a single return in over two years. The handle I saw recently wasn't that old. If the material has been changed, then the problem has been addressed. QuoteTrue, but you can still get it. I mean look at all the waivers you sign to skydive, every DZ yo go to, factory tandem instructor, pasenger etc. It isn't like it cost more. But I don't have to sign a waiver to get hip rings, a Skyhook, or stainless steel hardware. This is the only option that I know of that requires a waiver. QuoteThis I can help you with if you PM me a contact number. I can tell you how to help prevent this. Also if you are at Eloy for the Xmas boogie we will be giving a factory rigging classes on the Racer. Shouldn't this be public knowledge, even in the manual? If I could feel confident that I was protected from liability and that the owner could not tighten up the closing loops on their own without disturbing the seal, then I would reconsider my policy of not packing them. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #63 December 4, 2003 QuoteAs you have already stated any rig is not tamper resistant and can be circumvented. Unless someone can had me a tool or strap that I left in there they would be hard pressed to say I have a zero defense since I record pull force on every rig I pack and I use a digital calibrated certified scale. When I sign and seal a rig I am stating that at that time while that rig is still in my control everything is correct. Recording pull force test results after packing the rig might protect me from liability, but I am not positive it would. QuoteOr can you quote me a case where the FAA or a civil claim resulted from anyone tightening a rig after it left the rigger or there has been a failure from the same? I cannot quote you a case. I don't want to be the first. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #64 December 4, 2003 QuoteShouldn't this be public knowledge, even in the manual? If I could feel confident that I was protected from liability and that the owner could not tighten up the closing loops on their own without disturbing the seal, then I would reconsider my policy of not packing them. And it will be when the revision is complete. I have offered to help you now in a timely manner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #65 December 4, 2003 Quote If you look at your altimeter and you are at a 100ft you don't even have time to react. I did not mean that that person was in frefall. Just some partial mal after clearing the wrap, for instance. Besides, my point was different. See my previous post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #66 December 4, 2003 QuoteLet's say you get out of wrap, your canopy is not landable, you look at you altimeter, you are at 100ft, 64ft figure flashes in your memory, so you go for it... Then I say that guy is an idiot if he thinks he can cutaway and get a reserve above him at that altitude. You fail to mention the other decision marks that said jumper should of dealt with well before reaching that altitude but the example your using to justify your point is unrealistic, but I see the point your trying to make. Given a jumper who does the right things at the right altitude and has to cut away he will not be at terminal and he will idealy have a chute out in a relaitively short period of time. If that chute comes out quicker that equates to more altitude he has to adjust to the situation and land safely. r Just because the speedo on my car goes to 120 doesn't mean that I should drive it at 120."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #67 December 4, 2003 QuoteThen I say that guy is an idiot if he thinks he can cutaway and get a reserve above him at that altitude.Quote This is exactly what the ad "promised" - 64 feet from cutaway to full canopy. This "guy" just read the description of reserve container provided to him by Jumpshack (thru their ads). Jumpshack, not this guy, is here to blame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #68 December 4, 2003 QuoteThis is exactly what the ad "promised" - 64 feet from cutaway to full canopy. But I guarentee it didn't say you could cut away at 100feet. Even a first jump student knows better than to cutaway at 100 feet. Be realistic about this otherwise this discussion is moot."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #69 December 4, 2003 QuoteAnd it will be when the revision is complete. I have offered to help you now in a timely manner. I wholeheartly accept your generous offer. I would love to get together in Eloy and you will have my undivided attention. PM me any ideas you have for where we could work and what day. Thanks, Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #70 December 4, 2003 QuoteQuoteThis is exactly what the ad "promised" - 64 feet from cutaway to full canopy. But I guarentee it didn't say you could cut away at 100feet. Even a first jump student knows better than to cutaway at 100 feet. Be realistic about this otherwise this discussion is moot. Ok, I guess we reached the consensus... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #71 December 4, 2003 Still waiting for Mike's definition of a speedbag/freebag. My understanding of the speedbag (per the shack's web site) is that is is to protect "FreeFlyers and Speed Divers who reach speeds of over 200MPH. At high speeds we are much more prone to line dump because of the increase of inertia". Not to sound silly, but I hope that even Jump Shack reccomends SLOWING DOWN before deploying. Besides, not many people freefly in racers, and I doubt that many speed skydiver are on board either. I digres. Just waiting for Mike's definition of speed/freebags, or is it free/speedbags? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #72 December 4, 2003 Here's a picture of what your looking for. The Reserve SpeedBag You can find it if you search for Racer Speed Bag, but that would require searching.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NightJumper 0 #73 December 4, 2003 I don't have a definition as it is not mine but YOU posted the link to the site with the description, YOU again posted information about it above, RMSMITH posted a picture for you. No one but YOU said it was for intentional high-speed deployment. It was in part designed for a non-intentional high-speed deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #74 December 4, 2003 Geez, Mike, YOU make them and you don't even know what they are? BTW, I didn't say they were for intentional high speed deployment, that was straight off of JumpShacks site. Sorry, I'm just having fun with you on this. I don't jump Racers, don't like them, but don't find them difficult to pack at all. After years of dis-crediting tuck-tabs I find it comical that Jumpshack now has them. I guess velcro has finally died in skydiving. R-I-P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #75 December 4, 2003 QuoteAfter years of dis-crediting tuck-tabs I find it comical that Jumpshack now has them. I guess velcro has finally died in skydiving. R-I-P Yeah, that was their opinion in 2000: http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=velcro_is_obsolete&SortBy=TITLE_A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
LouDiamond 1 #68 December 4, 2003 QuoteThis is exactly what the ad "promised" - 64 feet from cutaway to full canopy. But I guarentee it didn't say you could cut away at 100feet. Even a first jump student knows better than to cutaway at 100 feet. Be realistic about this otherwise this discussion is moot."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #69 December 4, 2003 QuoteAnd it will be when the revision is complete. I have offered to help you now in a timely manner. I wholeheartly accept your generous offer. I would love to get together in Eloy and you will have my undivided attention. PM me any ideas you have for where we could work and what day. Thanks, Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #70 December 4, 2003 QuoteQuoteThis is exactly what the ad "promised" - 64 feet from cutaway to full canopy. But I guarentee it didn't say you could cut away at 100feet. Even a first jump student knows better than to cutaway at 100 feet. Be realistic about this otherwise this discussion is moot. Ok, I guess we reached the consensus... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #71 December 4, 2003 Still waiting for Mike's definition of a speedbag/freebag. My understanding of the speedbag (per the shack's web site) is that is is to protect "FreeFlyers and Speed Divers who reach speeds of over 200MPH. At high speeds we are much more prone to line dump because of the increase of inertia". Not to sound silly, but I hope that even Jump Shack reccomends SLOWING DOWN before deploying. Besides, not many people freefly in racers, and I doubt that many speed skydiver are on board either. I digres. Just waiting for Mike's definition of speed/freebags, or is it free/speedbags? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #72 December 4, 2003 Here's a picture of what your looking for. The Reserve SpeedBag You can find it if you search for Racer Speed Bag, but that would require searching.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NightJumper 0 #73 December 4, 2003 I don't have a definition as it is not mine but YOU posted the link to the site with the description, YOU again posted information about it above, RMSMITH posted a picture for you. No one but YOU said it was for intentional high-speed deployment. It was in part designed for a non-intentional high-speed deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #74 December 4, 2003 Geez, Mike, YOU make them and you don't even know what they are? BTW, I didn't say they were for intentional high speed deployment, that was straight off of JumpShacks site. Sorry, I'm just having fun with you on this. I don't jump Racers, don't like them, but don't find them difficult to pack at all. After years of dis-crediting tuck-tabs I find it comical that Jumpshack now has them. I guess velcro has finally died in skydiving. R-I-P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #75 December 4, 2003 QuoteAfter years of dis-crediting tuck-tabs I find it comical that Jumpshack now has them. I guess velcro has finally died in skydiving. R-I-P Yeah, that was their opinion in 2000: http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=velcro_is_obsolete&SortBy=TITLE_A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Treejumps 0 #71 December 4, 2003 Still waiting for Mike's definition of a speedbag/freebag. My understanding of the speedbag (per the shack's web site) is that is is to protect "FreeFlyers and Speed Divers who reach speeds of over 200MPH. At high speeds we are much more prone to line dump because of the increase of inertia". Not to sound silly, but I hope that even Jump Shack reccomends SLOWING DOWN before deploying. Besides, not many people freefly in racers, and I doubt that many speed skydiver are on board either. I digres. Just waiting for Mike's definition of speed/freebags, or is it free/speedbags? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #72 December 4, 2003 Here's a picture of what your looking for. The Reserve SpeedBag You can find it if you search for Racer Speed Bag, but that would require searching.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #73 December 4, 2003 I don't have a definition as it is not mine but YOU posted the link to the site with the description, YOU again posted information about it above, RMSMITH posted a picture for you. No one but YOU said it was for intentional high-speed deployment. It was in part designed for a non-intentional high-speed deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #74 December 4, 2003 Geez, Mike, YOU make them and you don't even know what they are? BTW, I didn't say they were for intentional high speed deployment, that was straight off of JumpShacks site. Sorry, I'm just having fun with you on this. I don't jump Racers, don't like them, but don't find them difficult to pack at all. After years of dis-crediting tuck-tabs I find it comical that Jumpshack now has them. I guess velcro has finally died in skydiving. R-I-P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #75 December 4, 2003 QuoteAfter years of dis-crediting tuck-tabs I find it comical that Jumpshack now has them. I guess velcro has finally died in skydiving. R-I-P Yeah, that was their opinion in 2000: http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=velcro_is_obsolete&SortBy=TITLE_A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
skydiverek 63 #75 December 4, 2003 QuoteAfter years of dis-crediting tuck-tabs I find it comical that Jumpshack now has them. I guess velcro has finally died in skydiving. R-I-P Yeah, that was their opinion in 2000: http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=velcro_is_obsolete&SortBy=TITLE_A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
