AggieDave 6 #26 December 3, 2003 Quote If you are a rigger then there is no excuse IMO for not being able to do your job Exactly! As lame as it is, that's why personally I think its a decent idea to get a brand of rig that is previlant at your DZ, thus the riggers there are familure with it and you won't be their "test dummy" when packing it. Although packing instructions are straight forward, you never know if a mistake might be made simply due to the fact that it is an unfamilure rig.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #27 December 3, 2003 The "new" racer freebag is not a speedbag. It is a standard racer freebag with rubber bands instead of a safety stow (bungee), and rubber bands instead of a velcro closed line stow pouch. I know, becasue my g/f lost her freebag and the new on is as described. There are mafunctions that are possible with rubber bands instead of a line stow pouch, mainly, a bag lock. Should one line bight go through another you would get a bag lock. Think bands always break? Why do bag locks ever occur then? The safety stow vs bands is less of a problem than the line stows, but there is a reason why the entire industry abandoned rubber bands for locking freebags shut. Incidentally, the grommets are brass, but they are coated, so rubber break-down should not be an issue. For those that don't know what a saafety stow does, it is a single bungee cord that creates both locking stows of a freebag. If one releases, they both release because the first stow releases the tension on the second. The Racer was a nice design, 25 years ago. Its nice that they finally updated it, but they really should just design a modern rig rather than trying to throw chrome wheels on a 72' Charger. [edited to remove personal attack] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #28 December 3, 2003 QuoteThe "new" racer freebag is not a speedbag. Yes it is a speed bag. You may think you know because "becasue my g/f lost her freebag and the new on is as described" but the fact is that I actually make them so I am sure that I do know what they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #29 December 3, 2003 Perhaps the definition of "speedbag" would help everyone undestand what is and isn't. According to JumpSHack, this is a speedbag. http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=Speedbag&SortBy=TITLE_A This pretty much says that a speesbag is defined by every stow being a locking stow. The freebag I was sent did not have every stow as a locking stow. Please tell me what you consider a speedbag freebag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #30 December 3, 2003 QuoteThe freebag I was sent did not have every stow as a locking stow. So then you didn't get the "new" freebag/speedbag and I guess you didn't know what you did get. QuotePlease tell me what you consider a speedbag freebag. Our new freebag Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #31 December 3, 2003 ***There is a HUGE difference between the reserve pack style of the Reflex and the Racer. The only thing they have in common is they are a poptop. Quote Ok, On the reserves I dont know what the differences are, can you explain? I had "assumed" that since both are poptops then the reserve pack would have to be similar..... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #32 December 3, 2003 AS much as I thought the bag I got was a bad idea, a freebag/speedbag with every stow as a locking stow is worse, much worse. I'll set my stopwatch now and see how long until a bag lock occurs with that system. That is a black death design. period. Fortunately for Racer, not many jumpers really understand their reserve systems. If more jumpers understood this speed/freebag system, I am confident they would not jump it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #33 December 3, 2003 QuoteI recently saw a red cutaway cable(s) that was very 'bumpy'. The cables were not smooth, which would increase cutaway forces. And you replaced it didn't you? Of course, but the cable wasn’t that old and I haven’t seen the same issues with lolon cutaway cables. Which is my point, the red coating is too soft. QuoteNo rig is tamper resistant. I disagree, however I would say that no rig is tamper proof. Which rig do you think is tamper resistant. Any rig can be made to total in less than five minutes in a way that is undetectable from the outside. The scenario that bothers me about Racers and Reflex’s is if the pop top loosens and the owner decides to tighten it back down, they could over tighten it making for a too high pull force. If they have a problem, it is still the rigger’s seal on the rig and they get blamed for the too high pull force. I can’t protect myself against that, so I don’t pack them. QuoteI don't think a reserve PC having to go past flaps makes a reserve deployment any slower. There are definitely rigs that have faster reserve deployments than others. The advantage of Jump Shack exposed PC is that it deploys to the full length of the bridal and into the air stream faster. This results in a faster deployed reserve. I pop a lot of reserves and a lot of them have the reserve PC go to the end of the bridle, after going through/past flaps. If you can get a reserve PC to go to the end of the bridle and have it completely protected from snagging anything before launch (internal PC), that negates any advantages of an exposed PC. QuoteIt also brings up those reserves out there that do not adhere to a 120-day re-pack cycle and the decomposing of the rubber bands. I don't know if the grommets on a Racer free-bag are nickle plated, but if they are not, rubber reacts with the brass. There have been no reported issues with extended pack times. As the new free bags do not have grommets for the stows it is a non-issue. With the older free bags with grommets, and the new ones without (?), the rubber bands still do not last as long as a safety stow. Because there hasn’t been a problem yet does not mean there won’t be. I have opened pilot rigs that have been packed for a while and the rubber bands are so degraded, they break with very little force (a couple of pounds or less), or are already broken. Quote And if a two pin system is so bad then why does the largest manufacture of military parachutes in the world use a two pin system on their ram air rigs? The same rigs that are own military use. They don’t use an exposed reserve PC, nor are the pins on the jumper’s back and the closing loops cannot be tightened without opening the reserve container. It is a very different reserve system. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NightJumper 0 #34 December 3, 2003 Considering that according to your profile -This has nothing to do with Gear and Rigging or Racers, Derek- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #35 December 3, 2003 Just beacuse I don't spend a lot of time fine tuning my profile does not mean I'm not a rigger. I did not say that I did not know what kind of bag I recieved. You said that. I was fully aware that it was not an industry standard bag with a line stow pouch and safety stow. I called and inquired about getting a standard bag, for which I was required by Nancy to sign a waiver. I declined since my g/f was getting a Wings container, and the Racer to be sold. Now that we have settled that, how about YOUR definition a a speedbag/freebag? You're previous answer would lead any reader to believe that you really don't know what makes it a speedbag or a freebag. Answer the question, please, and no cute answer like "the one we make" this time. By the way, I have since had the old bag returned. I can post pics of the old vs the new if you need help seeing the difference between them. The new one has no safety stow, and rubber bands instead of a pouch, but does NOT have all stows as locking stows. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dougjumper 0 #36 December 3, 2003 I personally own Two Rigs Jumpshack Racer Elite 2000. Also the Sunpath NJ Javelin. I Love them both. As far as the Jumpshack Racer--Damn Good Built Rig..Do the Study and Reasearch for yourself. I find the Jumpshack has Better TSO and a Damn good Harness Build than Most. I find more Rap about the Rig due to its Reserve Repack. Some Riggers dont Like to do it. Well, thats their downfall. If you have a well rounded Rigger and knows how to pack a Pop Top Racer no problems..So with that said...decide on your situation. Do you have an Experienced and Knowledgeable Rigger? If not that could be a factor but I know by experience Racers are quality Built Rigs.. The glass is half full or half empty doesn't matter. Let go and have the Lord guide your path. He will take care of it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #37 December 3, 2003 QuoteI find the Jumpshack has Better TSO and a Damn good Harness Build than Most Better TSO and harness than most other rigs? Can you explain how you came to those conclusions? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dougjumper 0 #38 December 3, 2003 Check Jumpshack Technical Articles.. Read How to Select a Parachute Harness/Container System. And Read Technical Articles : Should Harnesses Be "Fail Safe".[url]http://www.jumpshack.com The glass is half full or half empty doesn't matter. Let go and have the Lord guide your path. He will take care of it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #39 December 4, 2003 The TSO that Jumpshack used to certify the Racer is not the top of the line one anymore and several manufactors are making rigs that meet the higher requirements of the new TSO. In terms of the reserve opening... the container can only control the speed of the reserve PC launch and clearing of the freebag from the canopy. Everything else is up to the canopy. As for the rig design being "Fail-safe" Tear a rig apart with a master rigger some time and learn how one actually works. As soon as you ass in things like articulated hips or chests the harness design went out the window.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dougjumper 0 #40 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe TSO that Jumpshack used to certify the Racer is not the top of the line one anymore and several manufactors are making rigs that meet the higher requirements of the new TSO. Quote Really, Maybe I should give John Sherman a call and Speak to his R&D Department. The last I spoke to him in Aug 2001 it was... Last I checked the Vector III is still at old Wonderhog TSO.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #41 December 4, 2003 >Last I checked the Vector III is still at old Wonderhog TSO.. I believe this is still correct. Do you think Jumpshack has recertified the Racer under all the new requirements or just updated the original TSO paperwork? In October of 01 the Javelin was retested to meet TSO c23d (a maximum operating exit weight of 300lbs (136 kg) and a maximum operating speed of 170 knots (198 mph or 330 kph)), and the Wings was certified to this level since it was introduced.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #42 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe TSO that Jumpshack used to certify the Racer is not the top of the line one anymore and several manufactors are making rigs that meet the higher requirements of the new TSO. Really, Maybe I should give John Sherman a call and Speak to his R&D Department. The last I spoke to him in Aug 2001 it was... Last I checked the Vector III is still at old Wonderhog TSO.. “Sherman did not want to put 2 inch block letters on his nice, new piggyback design so he certified his harness to the 5000 lb. high speed category, most of the other guys followed suit.” And so is the Racer………… Both are TSO’d to C23B QuoteCheck Jumpshack Technical Articles.. Read How to Select a Parachute Harness/Container System. And Read Technical Articles : Should Harnesses Be "Fail Safe".http://www.jumpshack.com From: Should Harnesses Be "Fail Safe": "They both failed in the area of 2500 lbs. to 3000 lbs. load. Bill (Booth) has indicated that this is about the same result he has achieved and we would venture to say that this is true for just about every harness out there." “The first TSO standard was written with two levels of security, one for low speed 3000 lbs, and one for high speed 5000 lbs. The low speed required 2" Block letters indicating restriction to use in aircraft under 150 MPH. Sherman did not want to put 2 inch block letters on his nice, new piggyback design so he certified his harness to the 5000 lb. high speed category, most of the other guys followed suit.” From Poynters: “In July 1983, the factory announced that Pioneer’s Tri-Conical canopy was not compatible with the SST/Racer. Any installed Tri-Connicals should be removed. The reason given was that the canopy can produce a secondary opening shock which may exceed the Standard Category design limitations of the harness/container assembly.” Also from Poynter’s: “In 1983, Para-Flite began building the 400 sq ft seven-cell, span-wise constructed canopy for Steve Snyder’s propeller-driven ParaPlane. In the same year, the company developed the Safety Stow, an improvement to ram-air reserve parachute deployment bags. The Safety Stow provides at least double the bag locking strength and it makes bag locks less likely.” Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmsmith 1 #43 December 4, 2003 QuotePlease tell me what you consider a speedbag freebag. Here's a photo of a reserve freebag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #44 December 4, 2003 What I think some people are failing to see here is that the speedbag freebag is an option. You can still get the original bungee freebag from Jump Shack. My Racer Elite has a bungee freebag. However, Jump Shack gives the buyer the option of which bag they want to use. So lets tally it up now. All of the old Racer bitches and gripes have been addressed/removed with the release of the 2K3. We've thrown out the whole teflon /lollon cable thing since it was a bad batch that has been corrected( hmm, kinda like that reserve pin thing eh?) and we've established that if you have issues with the rubberbands you still have the choice to use the bungee freebag. Man so many choices to make, don't you just wish someone would cookie cut everything and make all your decisions/choices for you? So the only thing that hasn't changed is the fact that there are some lazy riggers out there who don't feel being technically proficient is important and don't take the time to learn how to properly pack a Racer reserve or don't like it because it's "harder" than the others."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #45 December 4, 2003 QuoteWe've thrown out the whole teflon /lollon cable thing since it was a bad batch that has been corrected The teflon cables are too soft, not just eh one batch that was cracking. Quotewe've established that if you have issues with the rubberbands you still have the choice to use the bungee freebag Apparently you have to sign a waiver to still get the old style bag. QuoteSo the only thing that hasn't changed is the fact that there are some lazy riggers out there who don't feel being technically proficient is important and don't take the time to learn how to properly pack a Racer reserve or don't like it because it's "harder" than the others. I am definately not a lazy rigger. I don't think they are that much harder than any other rig. just like any rig, once you learn the tricks, it as easy as the rest. My issue (overtightening of the closing loops by another rigger or the owner) hasn't been addressed. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #46 December 4, 2003 QuoteIn terms of the reserve opening... the container can only control the speed of the reserve PC launch and clearing of the freebag from the canopy. Everything else is up to the canopy Exactly... Containers should be compared in terms of the distance lost from a cutaway, to a moment the freebag slides of the reserve canopy... There is a JumpShack commercial during one of the breaks on "BreakAway" video. The reserve openings are so brisk that I think they would be VERY hard at terminal. Someone said that Jumpshack used a different pack job just to produce "WOW" effect for this commercial, but the same pack job would hurt you at terminal. Also, remember when they used to advertise 64-foot reserve openings (from cutaway to full canopy) in "Skydiving" magazine about 10 years ago? That's faster that SkyHook! . What's wrong here??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #47 December 4, 2003 QuoteApparently you have to sign a waiver to still get the old style bag. You have to sign a waiver to skydive too, it's the nature of the beast in todays world. Does that make it an issue? IMO no it does not, you are still given a choice as to which one you want. QuoteMy issue (overtightening of the closing loops by another rigger or the owner) hasn't been addressed. OK, I can see your point on this one but where does your responsibility begin and end? Once you no longer have positive control of any rig the myriad of things that the owner or other people can do to it without your knowledge are infinite regardless of the type of rig or who manufactured it. >Quote skydiverek QuoteSomeone said that ... Somone? Is this the same someone who's friends with your sisters brothers cousin twice removed? It's always someone or I know this guy. QuoteAlso, remember when they used to advertise 64-foot reserve openings (from cutaway to full canopy) in "Skydiving" magazine about 10 years ago? That's faster that SkyHook! . What's wrong here??? What's wrong is your talking about 10 years ago. Live in the now. That has nothing to do with what is being done today or even what we are discussing here."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #48 December 4, 2003 QuoteYou have to sign a waiver to skydive too, it's the nature of the beast in todays world. Does that make it an issue? IMO no it does not, you are still given a choice as to which one you want. I think it is a tactic by Jumpshack to discourage the use of their older freebag with the safety stow. I don't understand why Jump Shack is reverting back to rubber bands. QuoteOK, I can see your point on this one but where does your responsibility begin and end? Once you no longer have positive control of any rig the myriad of things that the owner or other people can do to it without your knowledge are infinite regardless of the type of rig or who manufactured it. The difference is two-fold. 1) If the pop top is overtightened by the owner, I will still be held accountable as I have zero defense except, "I didn't overtighten it." I don't know how well that would hold up against the FAA saying, "Your seal is on it, you signed the card, you tightened it, and there is no record of anyone else re-tightening it." And of course, the lolon cables being too soft (not the batch that was cracking), which still hasn't been addressed. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #49 December 4, 2003 QuoteQuoteSomeone said that ... Somone? Is this the same someone who's friends with your sisters brothers cousin twice removed? It's always someone or I know this guy. Quote If Bill Booth is talking about Jumpshack in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=371493#371493 then yes, you know him. He does not name the manufacturer (last paragraph of his post ), but something tells me he is referring to JumpShack... QuoteQuoteAlso, remember when they used to advertise 64-foot reserve openings (from cutaway to full canopy) in "Skydiving" magazine about 10 years ago? That's faster that SkyHook! . What's wrong here??? What's wrong is your talking about 10 years ago. Live in the now. That has nothing to do with what is being done today or even what we are discussing here. What's wrong here is that I think Jumpshack used deceptive advertising in these printed ads as well as in "BreakAway" commercials. That's it. But, as you said, we are not even discussing it here... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #50 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe difference is two-fold. 1) If the pop top is overtightened by the owner, I will still be held accountable as I have zero defense except, "I didn't overtighten it." I don't know how well that would hold up against the FAA saying, "Your seal is on it, you signed the card, you tightened it, and there is no record of anyone else re-tightening it." Well the same could be said if someone had a hard or no pull because of pull weight( Like the girl who went in on film trying to pull her reserve handle(javelin). Test showed it had a 50 lb pull weight) If the user or someone else abuses or otherwise causes the system to not function properly your seal will still be on the container. Unless I am mistaken, your seal being on the reserve container is verification that you(the person who packed the reserve) are certified to do so IAW all applicable regulations. Once that rig leaves your control your responsibility is ultimately determined by the investigation if there is an incident and it can be unequivocally attributed to the person who packed the reserve. IE: dude goes in because he cut away and his reserve didn't deploy because the rigger left a piece of equipment around/in/on the reserve. Otherwise you shouldn't be liable for anything and I'm sure even the greenest of lawyers could prove that point if it even got that far. This does bring up some interesting questions about riggers responsibilities not just in talking about Racers but for all rigs in general. QuoteAnd of course, the lolon cables being too soft (not the batch that was cracking), which still hasn't been addressed. I believe that problem was corrected and is also no longer an issue."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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Treejumps 0 #32 December 3, 2003 AS much as I thought the bag I got was a bad idea, a freebag/speedbag with every stow as a locking stow is worse, much worse. I'll set my stopwatch now and see how long until a bag lock occurs with that system. That is a black death design. period. Fortunately for Racer, not many jumpers really understand their reserve systems. If more jumpers understood this speed/freebag system, I am confident they would not jump it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #33 December 3, 2003 QuoteI recently saw a red cutaway cable(s) that was very 'bumpy'. The cables were not smooth, which would increase cutaway forces. And you replaced it didn't you? Of course, but the cable wasn’t that old and I haven’t seen the same issues with lolon cutaway cables. Which is my point, the red coating is too soft. QuoteNo rig is tamper resistant. I disagree, however I would say that no rig is tamper proof. Which rig do you think is tamper resistant. Any rig can be made to total in less than five minutes in a way that is undetectable from the outside. The scenario that bothers me about Racers and Reflex’s is if the pop top loosens and the owner decides to tighten it back down, they could over tighten it making for a too high pull force. If they have a problem, it is still the rigger’s seal on the rig and they get blamed for the too high pull force. I can’t protect myself against that, so I don’t pack them. QuoteI don't think a reserve PC having to go past flaps makes a reserve deployment any slower. There are definitely rigs that have faster reserve deployments than others. The advantage of Jump Shack exposed PC is that it deploys to the full length of the bridal and into the air stream faster. This results in a faster deployed reserve. I pop a lot of reserves and a lot of them have the reserve PC go to the end of the bridle, after going through/past flaps. If you can get a reserve PC to go to the end of the bridle and have it completely protected from snagging anything before launch (internal PC), that negates any advantages of an exposed PC. QuoteIt also brings up those reserves out there that do not adhere to a 120-day re-pack cycle and the decomposing of the rubber bands. I don't know if the grommets on a Racer free-bag are nickle plated, but if they are not, rubber reacts with the brass. There have been no reported issues with extended pack times. As the new free bags do not have grommets for the stows it is a non-issue. With the older free bags with grommets, and the new ones without (?), the rubber bands still do not last as long as a safety stow. Because there hasn’t been a problem yet does not mean there won’t be. I have opened pilot rigs that have been packed for a while and the rubber bands are so degraded, they break with very little force (a couple of pounds or less), or are already broken. Quote And if a two pin system is so bad then why does the largest manufacture of military parachutes in the world use a two pin system on their ram air rigs? The same rigs that are own military use. They don’t use an exposed reserve PC, nor are the pins on the jumper’s back and the closing loops cannot be tightened without opening the reserve container. It is a very different reserve system. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #34 December 3, 2003 Considering that according to your profile -This has nothing to do with Gear and Rigging or Racers, Derek- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #35 December 3, 2003 Just beacuse I don't spend a lot of time fine tuning my profile does not mean I'm not a rigger. I did not say that I did not know what kind of bag I recieved. You said that. I was fully aware that it was not an industry standard bag with a line stow pouch and safety stow. I called and inquired about getting a standard bag, for which I was required by Nancy to sign a waiver. I declined since my g/f was getting a Wings container, and the Racer to be sold. Now that we have settled that, how about YOUR definition a a speedbag/freebag? You're previous answer would lead any reader to believe that you really don't know what makes it a speedbag or a freebag. Answer the question, please, and no cute answer like "the one we make" this time. By the way, I have since had the old bag returned. I can post pics of the old vs the new if you need help seeing the difference between them. The new one has no safety stow, and rubber bands instead of a pouch, but does NOT have all stows as locking stows. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougjumper 0 #36 December 3, 2003 I personally own Two Rigs Jumpshack Racer Elite 2000. Also the Sunpath NJ Javelin. I Love them both. As far as the Jumpshack Racer--Damn Good Built Rig..Do the Study and Reasearch for yourself. I find the Jumpshack has Better TSO and a Damn good Harness Build than Most. I find more Rap about the Rig due to its Reserve Repack. Some Riggers dont Like to do it. Well, thats their downfall. If you have a well rounded Rigger and knows how to pack a Pop Top Racer no problems..So with that said...decide on your situation. Do you have an Experienced and Knowledgeable Rigger? If not that could be a factor but I know by experience Racers are quality Built Rigs.. The glass is half full or half empty doesn't matter. Let go and have the Lord guide your path. He will take care of it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #37 December 3, 2003 QuoteI find the Jumpshack has Better TSO and a Damn good Harness Build than Most Better TSO and harness than most other rigs? Can you explain how you came to those conclusions? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougjumper 0 #38 December 3, 2003 Check Jumpshack Technical Articles.. Read How to Select a Parachute Harness/Container System. And Read Technical Articles : Should Harnesses Be "Fail Safe".[url]http://www.jumpshack.com The glass is half full or half empty doesn't matter. Let go and have the Lord guide your path. He will take care of it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #39 December 4, 2003 The TSO that Jumpshack used to certify the Racer is not the top of the line one anymore and several manufactors are making rigs that meet the higher requirements of the new TSO. In terms of the reserve opening... the container can only control the speed of the reserve PC launch and clearing of the freebag from the canopy. Everything else is up to the canopy. As for the rig design being "Fail-safe" Tear a rig apart with a master rigger some time and learn how one actually works. As soon as you ass in things like articulated hips or chests the harness design went out the window.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougjumper 0 #40 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe TSO that Jumpshack used to certify the Racer is not the top of the line one anymore and several manufactors are making rigs that meet the higher requirements of the new TSO. Quote Really, Maybe I should give John Sherman a call and Speak to his R&D Department. The last I spoke to him in Aug 2001 it was... Last I checked the Vector III is still at old Wonderhog TSO.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #41 December 4, 2003 >Last I checked the Vector III is still at old Wonderhog TSO.. I believe this is still correct. Do you think Jumpshack has recertified the Racer under all the new requirements or just updated the original TSO paperwork? In October of 01 the Javelin was retested to meet TSO c23d (a maximum operating exit weight of 300lbs (136 kg) and a maximum operating speed of 170 knots (198 mph or 330 kph)), and the Wings was certified to this level since it was introduced.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #42 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe TSO that Jumpshack used to certify the Racer is not the top of the line one anymore and several manufactors are making rigs that meet the higher requirements of the new TSO. Really, Maybe I should give John Sherman a call and Speak to his R&D Department. The last I spoke to him in Aug 2001 it was... Last I checked the Vector III is still at old Wonderhog TSO.. “Sherman did not want to put 2 inch block letters on his nice, new piggyback design so he certified his harness to the 5000 lb. high speed category, most of the other guys followed suit.” And so is the Racer………… Both are TSO’d to C23B QuoteCheck Jumpshack Technical Articles.. Read How to Select a Parachute Harness/Container System. And Read Technical Articles : Should Harnesses Be "Fail Safe".http://www.jumpshack.com From: Should Harnesses Be "Fail Safe": "They both failed in the area of 2500 lbs. to 3000 lbs. load. Bill (Booth) has indicated that this is about the same result he has achieved and we would venture to say that this is true for just about every harness out there." “The first TSO standard was written with two levels of security, one for low speed 3000 lbs, and one for high speed 5000 lbs. The low speed required 2" Block letters indicating restriction to use in aircraft under 150 MPH. Sherman did not want to put 2 inch block letters on his nice, new piggyback design so he certified his harness to the 5000 lb. high speed category, most of the other guys followed suit.” From Poynters: “In July 1983, the factory announced that Pioneer’s Tri-Conical canopy was not compatible with the SST/Racer. Any installed Tri-Connicals should be removed. The reason given was that the canopy can produce a secondary opening shock which may exceed the Standard Category design limitations of the harness/container assembly.” Also from Poynter’s: “In 1983, Para-Flite began building the 400 sq ft seven-cell, span-wise constructed canopy for Steve Snyder’s propeller-driven ParaPlane. In the same year, the company developed the Safety Stow, an improvement to ram-air reserve parachute deployment bags. The Safety Stow provides at least double the bag locking strength and it makes bag locks less likely.” Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmsmith 1 #43 December 4, 2003 QuotePlease tell me what you consider a speedbag freebag. Here's a photo of a reserve freebag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #44 December 4, 2003 What I think some people are failing to see here is that the speedbag freebag is an option. You can still get the original bungee freebag from Jump Shack. My Racer Elite has a bungee freebag. However, Jump Shack gives the buyer the option of which bag they want to use. So lets tally it up now. All of the old Racer bitches and gripes have been addressed/removed with the release of the 2K3. We've thrown out the whole teflon /lollon cable thing since it was a bad batch that has been corrected( hmm, kinda like that reserve pin thing eh?) and we've established that if you have issues with the rubberbands you still have the choice to use the bungee freebag. Man so many choices to make, don't you just wish someone would cookie cut everything and make all your decisions/choices for you? So the only thing that hasn't changed is the fact that there are some lazy riggers out there who don't feel being technically proficient is important and don't take the time to learn how to properly pack a Racer reserve or don't like it because it's "harder" than the others."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #45 December 4, 2003 QuoteWe've thrown out the whole teflon /lollon cable thing since it was a bad batch that has been corrected The teflon cables are too soft, not just eh one batch that was cracking. Quotewe've established that if you have issues with the rubberbands you still have the choice to use the bungee freebag Apparently you have to sign a waiver to still get the old style bag. QuoteSo the only thing that hasn't changed is the fact that there are some lazy riggers out there who don't feel being technically proficient is important and don't take the time to learn how to properly pack a Racer reserve or don't like it because it's "harder" than the others. I am definately not a lazy rigger. I don't think they are that much harder than any other rig. just like any rig, once you learn the tricks, it as easy as the rest. My issue (overtightening of the closing loops by another rigger or the owner) hasn't been addressed. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #46 December 4, 2003 QuoteIn terms of the reserve opening... the container can only control the speed of the reserve PC launch and clearing of the freebag from the canopy. Everything else is up to the canopy Exactly... Containers should be compared in terms of the distance lost from a cutaway, to a moment the freebag slides of the reserve canopy... There is a JumpShack commercial during one of the breaks on "BreakAway" video. The reserve openings are so brisk that I think they would be VERY hard at terminal. Someone said that Jumpshack used a different pack job just to produce "WOW" effect for this commercial, but the same pack job would hurt you at terminal. Also, remember when they used to advertise 64-foot reserve openings (from cutaway to full canopy) in "Skydiving" magazine about 10 years ago? That's faster that SkyHook! . What's wrong here??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #47 December 4, 2003 QuoteApparently you have to sign a waiver to still get the old style bag. You have to sign a waiver to skydive too, it's the nature of the beast in todays world. Does that make it an issue? IMO no it does not, you are still given a choice as to which one you want. QuoteMy issue (overtightening of the closing loops by another rigger or the owner) hasn't been addressed. OK, I can see your point on this one but where does your responsibility begin and end? Once you no longer have positive control of any rig the myriad of things that the owner or other people can do to it without your knowledge are infinite regardless of the type of rig or who manufactured it. >Quote skydiverek QuoteSomeone said that ... Somone? Is this the same someone who's friends with your sisters brothers cousin twice removed? It's always someone or I know this guy. QuoteAlso, remember when they used to advertise 64-foot reserve openings (from cutaway to full canopy) in "Skydiving" magazine about 10 years ago? That's faster that SkyHook! . What's wrong here??? What's wrong is your talking about 10 years ago. Live in the now. That has nothing to do with what is being done today or even what we are discussing here."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #48 December 4, 2003 QuoteYou have to sign a waiver to skydive too, it's the nature of the beast in todays world. Does that make it an issue? IMO no it does not, you are still given a choice as to which one you want. I think it is a tactic by Jumpshack to discourage the use of their older freebag with the safety stow. I don't understand why Jump Shack is reverting back to rubber bands. QuoteOK, I can see your point on this one but where does your responsibility begin and end? Once you no longer have positive control of any rig the myriad of things that the owner or other people can do to it without your knowledge are infinite regardless of the type of rig or who manufactured it. The difference is two-fold. 1) If the pop top is overtightened by the owner, I will still be held accountable as I have zero defense except, "I didn't overtighten it." I don't know how well that would hold up against the FAA saying, "Your seal is on it, you signed the card, you tightened it, and there is no record of anyone else re-tightening it." And of course, the lolon cables being too soft (not the batch that was cracking), which still hasn't been addressed. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #49 December 4, 2003 QuoteQuoteSomeone said that ... Somone? Is this the same someone who's friends with your sisters brothers cousin twice removed? It's always someone or I know this guy. Quote If Bill Booth is talking about Jumpshack in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=371493#371493 then yes, you know him. He does not name the manufacturer (last paragraph of his post ), but something tells me he is referring to JumpShack... QuoteQuoteAlso, remember when they used to advertise 64-foot reserve openings (from cutaway to full canopy) in "Skydiving" magazine about 10 years ago? That's faster that SkyHook! . What's wrong here??? What's wrong is your talking about 10 years ago. Live in the now. That has nothing to do with what is being done today or even what we are discussing here. What's wrong here is that I think Jumpshack used deceptive advertising in these printed ads as well as in "BreakAway" commercials. That's it. But, as you said, we are not even discussing it here... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #50 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe difference is two-fold. 1) If the pop top is overtightened by the owner, I will still be held accountable as I have zero defense except, "I didn't overtighten it." I don't know how well that would hold up against the FAA saying, "Your seal is on it, you signed the card, you tightened it, and there is no record of anyone else re-tightening it." Well the same could be said if someone had a hard or no pull because of pull weight( Like the girl who went in on film trying to pull her reserve handle(javelin). Test showed it had a 50 lb pull weight) If the user or someone else abuses or otherwise causes the system to not function properly your seal will still be on the container. Unless I am mistaken, your seal being on the reserve container is verification that you(the person who packed the reserve) are certified to do so IAW all applicable regulations. Once that rig leaves your control your responsibility is ultimately determined by the investigation if there is an incident and it can be unequivocally attributed to the person who packed the reserve. IE: dude goes in because he cut away and his reserve didn't deploy because the rigger left a piece of equipment around/in/on the reserve. Otherwise you shouldn't be liable for anything and I'm sure even the greenest of lawyers could prove that point if it even got that far. This does bring up some interesting questions about riggers responsibilities not just in talking about Racers but for all rigs in general. QuoteAnd of course, the lolon cables being too soft (not the batch that was cracking), which still hasn't been addressed. I believe that problem was corrected and is also no longer an issue."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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PhreeZone 20 #41 December 4, 2003 >Last I checked the Vector III is still at old Wonderhog TSO.. I believe this is still correct. Do you think Jumpshack has recertified the Racer under all the new requirements or just updated the original TSO paperwork? In October of 01 the Javelin was retested to meet TSO c23d (a maximum operating exit weight of 300lbs (136 kg) and a maximum operating speed of 170 knots (198 mph or 330 kph)), and the Wings was certified to this level since it was introduced.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #42 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe TSO that Jumpshack used to certify the Racer is not the top of the line one anymore and several manufactors are making rigs that meet the higher requirements of the new TSO. Really, Maybe I should give John Sherman a call and Speak to his R&D Department. The last I spoke to him in Aug 2001 it was... Last I checked the Vector III is still at old Wonderhog TSO.. “Sherman did not want to put 2 inch block letters on his nice, new piggyback design so he certified his harness to the 5000 lb. high speed category, most of the other guys followed suit.” And so is the Racer………… Both are TSO’d to C23B QuoteCheck Jumpshack Technical Articles.. Read How to Select a Parachute Harness/Container System. And Read Technical Articles : Should Harnesses Be "Fail Safe".http://www.jumpshack.com From: Should Harnesses Be "Fail Safe": "They both failed in the area of 2500 lbs. to 3000 lbs. load. Bill (Booth) has indicated that this is about the same result he has achieved and we would venture to say that this is true for just about every harness out there." “The first TSO standard was written with two levels of security, one for low speed 3000 lbs, and one for high speed 5000 lbs. The low speed required 2" Block letters indicating restriction to use in aircraft under 150 MPH. Sherman did not want to put 2 inch block letters on his nice, new piggyback design so he certified his harness to the 5000 lb. high speed category, most of the other guys followed suit.” From Poynters: “In July 1983, the factory announced that Pioneer’s Tri-Conical canopy was not compatible with the SST/Racer. Any installed Tri-Connicals should be removed. The reason given was that the canopy can produce a secondary opening shock which may exceed the Standard Category design limitations of the harness/container assembly.” Also from Poynter’s: “In 1983, Para-Flite began building the 400 sq ft seven-cell, span-wise constructed canopy for Steve Snyder’s propeller-driven ParaPlane. In the same year, the company developed the Safety Stow, an improvement to ram-air reserve parachute deployment bags. The Safety Stow provides at least double the bag locking strength and it makes bag locks less likely.” Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #43 December 4, 2003 QuotePlease tell me what you consider a speedbag freebag. Here's a photo of a reserve freebag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #44 December 4, 2003 What I think some people are failing to see here is that the speedbag freebag is an option. You can still get the original bungee freebag from Jump Shack. My Racer Elite has a bungee freebag. However, Jump Shack gives the buyer the option of which bag they want to use. So lets tally it up now. All of the old Racer bitches and gripes have been addressed/removed with the release of the 2K3. We've thrown out the whole teflon /lollon cable thing since it was a bad batch that has been corrected( hmm, kinda like that reserve pin thing eh?) and we've established that if you have issues with the rubberbands you still have the choice to use the bungee freebag. Man so many choices to make, don't you just wish someone would cookie cut everything and make all your decisions/choices for you? So the only thing that hasn't changed is the fact that there are some lazy riggers out there who don't feel being technically proficient is important and don't take the time to learn how to properly pack a Racer reserve or don't like it because it's "harder" than the others."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #45 December 4, 2003 QuoteWe've thrown out the whole teflon /lollon cable thing since it was a bad batch that has been corrected The teflon cables are too soft, not just eh one batch that was cracking. Quotewe've established that if you have issues with the rubberbands you still have the choice to use the bungee freebag Apparently you have to sign a waiver to still get the old style bag. QuoteSo the only thing that hasn't changed is the fact that there are some lazy riggers out there who don't feel being technically proficient is important and don't take the time to learn how to properly pack a Racer reserve or don't like it because it's "harder" than the others. I am definately not a lazy rigger. I don't think they are that much harder than any other rig. just like any rig, once you learn the tricks, it as easy as the rest. My issue (overtightening of the closing loops by another rigger or the owner) hasn't been addressed. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #46 December 4, 2003 QuoteIn terms of the reserve opening... the container can only control the speed of the reserve PC launch and clearing of the freebag from the canopy. Everything else is up to the canopy Exactly... Containers should be compared in terms of the distance lost from a cutaway, to a moment the freebag slides of the reserve canopy... There is a JumpShack commercial during one of the breaks on "BreakAway" video. The reserve openings are so brisk that I think they would be VERY hard at terminal. Someone said that Jumpshack used a different pack job just to produce "WOW" effect for this commercial, but the same pack job would hurt you at terminal. Also, remember when they used to advertise 64-foot reserve openings (from cutaway to full canopy) in "Skydiving" magazine about 10 years ago? That's faster that SkyHook! . What's wrong here??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #47 December 4, 2003 QuoteApparently you have to sign a waiver to still get the old style bag. You have to sign a waiver to skydive too, it's the nature of the beast in todays world. Does that make it an issue? IMO no it does not, you are still given a choice as to which one you want. QuoteMy issue (overtightening of the closing loops by another rigger or the owner) hasn't been addressed. OK, I can see your point on this one but where does your responsibility begin and end? Once you no longer have positive control of any rig the myriad of things that the owner or other people can do to it without your knowledge are infinite regardless of the type of rig or who manufactured it. >Quote skydiverek QuoteSomeone said that ... Somone? Is this the same someone who's friends with your sisters brothers cousin twice removed? It's always someone or I know this guy. QuoteAlso, remember when they used to advertise 64-foot reserve openings (from cutaway to full canopy) in "Skydiving" magazine about 10 years ago? That's faster that SkyHook! . What's wrong here??? What's wrong is your talking about 10 years ago. Live in the now. That has nothing to do with what is being done today or even what we are discussing here."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #48 December 4, 2003 QuoteYou have to sign a waiver to skydive too, it's the nature of the beast in todays world. Does that make it an issue? IMO no it does not, you are still given a choice as to which one you want. I think it is a tactic by Jumpshack to discourage the use of their older freebag with the safety stow. I don't understand why Jump Shack is reverting back to rubber bands. QuoteOK, I can see your point on this one but where does your responsibility begin and end? Once you no longer have positive control of any rig the myriad of things that the owner or other people can do to it without your knowledge are infinite regardless of the type of rig or who manufactured it. The difference is two-fold. 1) If the pop top is overtightened by the owner, I will still be held accountable as I have zero defense except, "I didn't overtighten it." I don't know how well that would hold up against the FAA saying, "Your seal is on it, you signed the card, you tightened it, and there is no record of anyone else re-tightening it." And of course, the lolon cables being too soft (not the batch that was cracking), which still hasn't been addressed. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #49 December 4, 2003 QuoteQuoteSomeone said that ... Somone? Is this the same someone who's friends with your sisters brothers cousin twice removed? It's always someone or I know this guy. Quote If Bill Booth is talking about Jumpshack in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=371493#371493 then yes, you know him. He does not name the manufacturer (last paragraph of his post ), but something tells me he is referring to JumpShack... QuoteQuoteAlso, remember when they used to advertise 64-foot reserve openings (from cutaway to full canopy) in "Skydiving" magazine about 10 years ago? That's faster that SkyHook! . What's wrong here??? What's wrong is your talking about 10 years ago. Live in the now. That has nothing to do with what is being done today or even what we are discussing here. What's wrong here is that I think Jumpshack used deceptive advertising in these printed ads as well as in "BreakAway" commercials. That's it. But, as you said, we are not even discussing it here... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #50 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe difference is two-fold. 1) If the pop top is overtightened by the owner, I will still be held accountable as I have zero defense except, "I didn't overtighten it." I don't know how well that would hold up against the FAA saying, "Your seal is on it, you signed the card, you tightened it, and there is no record of anyone else re-tightening it." Well the same could be said if someone had a hard or no pull because of pull weight( Like the girl who went in on film trying to pull her reserve handle(javelin). Test showed it had a 50 lb pull weight) If the user or someone else abuses or otherwise causes the system to not function properly your seal will still be on the container. Unless I am mistaken, your seal being on the reserve container is verification that you(the person who packed the reserve) are certified to do so IAW all applicable regulations. Once that rig leaves your control your responsibility is ultimately determined by the investigation if there is an incident and it can be unequivocally attributed to the person who packed the reserve. IE: dude goes in because he cut away and his reserve didn't deploy because the rigger left a piece of equipment around/in/on the reserve. Otherwise you shouldn't be liable for anything and I'm sure even the greenest of lawyers could prove that point if it even got that far. This does bring up some interesting questions about riggers responsibilities not just in talking about Racers but for all rigs in general. QuoteAnd of course, the lolon cables being too soft (not the batch that was cracking), which still hasn't been addressed. I believe that problem was corrected and is also no longer an issue."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
LouDiamond 1 #50 December 4, 2003 QuoteThe difference is two-fold. 1) If the pop top is overtightened by the owner, I will still be held accountable as I have zero defense except, "I didn't overtighten it." I don't know how well that would hold up against the FAA saying, "Your seal is on it, you signed the card, you tightened it, and there is no record of anyone else re-tightening it." Well the same could be said if someone had a hard or no pull because of pull weight( Like the girl who went in on film trying to pull her reserve handle(javelin). Test showed it had a 50 lb pull weight) If the user or someone else abuses or otherwise causes the system to not function properly your seal will still be on the container. Unless I am mistaken, your seal being on the reserve container is verification that you(the person who packed the reserve) are certified to do so IAW all applicable regulations. Once that rig leaves your control your responsibility is ultimately determined by the investigation if there is an incident and it can be unequivocally attributed to the person who packed the reserve. IE: dude goes in because he cut away and his reserve didn't deploy because the rigger left a piece of equipment around/in/on the reserve. Otherwise you shouldn't be liable for anything and I'm sure even the greenest of lawyers could prove that point if it even got that far. This does bring up some interesting questions about riggers responsibilities not just in talking about Racers but for all rigs in general. QuoteAnd of course, the lolon cables being too soft (not the batch that was cracking), which still hasn't been addressed. I believe that problem was corrected and is also no longer an issue."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
