ShcShc11 0 #1 November 26, 2011 Just another curiosity question from a newbie... What aspects of wingsuit flying that makes it so much more dangerous than skydiving? If I was a complete wuffo, I would have the impression wingsuit would be safer in the sense that it gives you more time to react. Is it just more prone to parachute malfunctions? Is it just more difficult to operate during malfunctions (e.g: like skysurfing)? Is it just PHYSICALLY more demanding? What aspects exactly are the cause of concern? Thanks! Hugs and cheers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mccordia 74 #2 November 26, 2011 QuoteI would have the impression wingsuit would be safer in the sense that it gives you more time to react. The only segment where it adds more time, is the freefall. But the critical parts of a skydive (the opening) everyone is under the same 1G acceleration, and has to go through the same canopy procedures as a normal skydive. Yet with an added straight-jacket restricting your movement. Wingsuit flying isnt more prone to parachute malfunctions, though we are seeing a lot more malfunctions/linewist, which tend to be the result from bad body position/low skill. On top of that, it is physically more demanding, and the arms can wear out after long flights, resulting in weak pull etc. On top of that, the suit adds a lot of variables on top of the skydive (navigation, exit dangers of hitting the airplane tail) as well as more agressive response in case of instability (due to the larger control surfaces).JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,107 #3 November 26, 2011 Quote Wingsuit flying isnt more prone to parachute malfunctions, though we are seeing a lot more malfunctions/linewist, which tend to be the result from bad body position/low skill. Are we really seeing more, or just more that have to be cut away? With some canopies, line twists that in a normal skydive are easy to deal with can quickly become unrecoverable spins in the few seconds it takes to free the arms in a wingsuit.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mccordia 74 #4 November 26, 2011 I think a combination of both. Indeed also dealing with a spin/twist is harder, as well as people jumping stupid small canopies, with stupid low jump numbers, and bad body position and pull technique. Ive seen more than one cutaway that was the result of massive asymmetry during deployment, while (initially) the canopy opened correctly. And some truly scary stuff with bigger suits (again that more massive burble) and small canopies. The german video (main getting sucked back into the burble completely after deploying) especially.. In general...I think wingsuit flying has a much larger percentage of people keen on putting themselves in danger... JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Arvoitus 1 #5 November 26, 2011 Because if you're lazy when you pull this happens. I was so sure that I was going to get my first cutaway when it started to spin but things settled down after all.Your rights end where my feelings begin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ShcShc11 0 #6 November 26, 2011 QuoteBecause if you're lazy when you pull this happens. I was so sure that I was going to get my first cutaway when it started to spin but things settled down after all. Ouch. Maybe the rigs need to be re-designed in order to accommodate wingsuit flyers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mccordia 74 #7 November 26, 2011 QuoteOuch. Maybe the rigs need to be re-designed in order to accommodate wingsuit flyers Noop...people just need to pull the way they also should on normal skydives. Lazy pulls can also lead to all kinds of crap on normal jumps..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #8 November 27, 2011 in reply to "Maybe the rigs need to be re-designed in order to accommodate wingsuit flyers " ................................................ no Maybe about it ,there's definitely room for improvement . We're just making do, quite OK usually , with what we've got. A bit of bridle length increase, a roll of the bag to point the bag grommet in the direction of deployment, close attention to slack line placement in the container and usually things are ok. But if one bit of the bag gets caught during deployment , it may be in a spin already as it bounces off your feet , shedding lines and looking quite mesmerisingly fatal until the interesting opening that follows. You suddenly realise how inadequate the gear is . With just one little slip of packing or deployment attention you may get a reserve ride. We need less finicky equipment. a simple upgrade would be ... dynamic corners. No more snaggy baggy. The whole throwaway thing seems woobbly too. Tossing out a Pc and hoping it inflates seems a bit haphazard . I've been wondering if a pull-out might be more effective. I've jumped pull-out reserve rigs (ie handle on base of pilotchute not the top.) that worked VERY well. The reserve pc would get snatched out of your hand before full arm extension. Perhaps something similar would work with a wingsuit main deployment. .....perhaps not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 858 #9 November 27, 2011 In over 4800 jumps, I have only two sport cutaways. BOTH wingies. Love the burble over your back holding the back while playing etch-o-sketch. Or when Scott Bland flies over top and kicks my d bag into massive line twists.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KrisFlyZ 0 #10 November 28, 2011 Almost all manufacturers offer dynamic corners...it is a simple mod to get the corners opened up. I had my Mirage modified before I started wing suiting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dirtbox 0 #11 November 30, 2011 I was of the same thought but after talking to a lot of people and doing a bit of reading I swaped my pullout for a BOC. Maybe when I have some more WS experience (25ish now) I will put the pullout back on and try it... I know guy who does jump a Phantom 2 with a pullout (he also has 5000 odd jumps... not my tiny 250ish). If you search for pullout and wingsuit here you get a few people who said they use/used it but most frowned upon it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Martini 0 #12 November 30, 2011 Quotea simple upgrade would be ... dynamic corners. No more snaggy baggy. I have three rigs with dynamic corners and I believe that they can help. OTOH my second jump on a rig that had just been modified with dynamic corners ended up a cutaway. Like a lot of mods they're an aid not a solution.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #13 November 30, 2011 Pullouts work fine, if you don't mind hesitations and are entirely sure you can get it into the wind every time, and don't mind pulling a little higher to deal with it if it doesn't work the way you expect it to work, and as long as you stay in a small suit, and, and...there is a reason "most frown on it." A big part of skydiving is mitigating risk and minimising error where we can. Using a pullout is a step in the other direction. Aside from the "I know a guy that has 5000 jumps who jumps with one," what good reason is there to use a pullout system Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Krollo 0 #14 November 30, 2011 There are several reasons why wingsuiting is considered more dangerous then regular skydiving. Most of the dangers are related to lack of experience. - Bad exit, hitting the tail. - Unstable deployments resulting in malfunctions. - Bad body position resulting in big burble that might Oscillate your pilotchute into another dimension! - Lazy pilot throw, resulting in pilotchute Oscillation/twists. - mid air collisions with other wingsuits. Actually, I've done all of these (except for hitting the aircraft tail). Except from the problems listed, I think the most dangerous part of wingsuit flying is the deployment. Wingsuits are like straitjackets, you can't make inputs to your canopy during opening. And when your canopy is opened it is extremly important to pay attention to other canopies. How many times havent we seen wingsuit video, then after deployment the jumper starts unzipping and does not pay ANY attention to the airspace. This is not really just for wingsuits, but it is easier to get distracted by all the zippers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dirtbox 0 #15 November 30, 2011 There seems to be no good reasons to jump a pullout over BOC (had my container moded before my ffc) in wingsuiting (and there are enough debates on here about them in general... though I do personally like the idea of pulling my own pin and would rather deal with a floating handle than pilotchute-in-tow). Doesn't mean that with experience I wouldn't mind to try it for myself to understand it PS I believe you taught Ke - he was my FFC instructor/I was his first student - I think he did a pretty good job :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites monkycndo 0 #16 November 30, 2011 With a pullout, if you have a weak pitch that is still enough to pull your pin, but not enough for the PC to clear your burble, you now have the possibility of the d-bag falling out of your container and getting tangled in the PC bridle that is dancing around your back. Not something I want to deal with. If you have a throw out PC dancing in your burble, most likely your container is still closed. As soon as you get some clean air to get PC to full stretch, you have a normal deployment. Much preferable. Just because people get away with doing something that is not best practice, doesn't make it a good idea. A throw out PC on a longer bridle is your friend.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WickedWingsuits 0 #17 December 1, 2011 Quote - Bad exit, hitting the tail. - Unstable deployments resulting in malfunctions. - Bad body position resulting in big burble that might Oscillate your pilotchute into another dimension! - Lazy pilot throw, resulting in pilotchute Oscillation/twists. - mid air collisions with other wingsuits. All of these have killed more non-wingsuiters than those with wingsuits....to date...we should try and keep it that way. A wingsuit just makes all of the above more likely.Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #18 December 1, 2011 in reply to "what good reason is there to use a pullout system " .............................. Sorry , should have made it clearer , I'm not a huge fan of the pullout system as such for wingsuiting, but the thought was , putting the pud on the base of the PC. it still operating like a throwaway but getting inflation at arms stretch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites verticalflyer 11 #19 December 1, 2011 This is a moot debate, throw your PC properly and maintain a symmetrical body position with closed legs on deployment and there is not an issue. I have over 1000 wingsuit flights with a normal container, pc and bridle and have no issues. Keep it simple and deploy properly.Dont just talk about it, Do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jon26 0 #20 December 2, 2011 +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #21 December 2, 2011 Quote...you can't make inputs to your canopy during opening... Sure you can, they are called Harness inputs and I assure you can can fly your self through the opening using them and small leg and/or arm inputs just like you do when your not in a WS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #22 December 2, 2011 in reply to ". I have over 1000 wingsuit flights with a normal container, pc and bridle and have no issues. Keep it simple and deploy properly. " ................................ +0 You have 1000 ws jumps , So @#$%in' what? I can't share an idea? just sit in the corner and shut up eh ? I'm gunna try this idea and see if its an improvement. I'll let you know what happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WickedWingsuits 0 #23 December 2, 2011 QuoteQuote...you can't make inputs to your canopy during opening... Sure you can, they are called Harness inputs and I assure you can can fly your self through the opening using them and small leg and/or arm inputs just like you do when your not in a WS. I have landed an R Bird more than a once with unzipping anything.Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #24 December 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote...you can't make inputs to your canopy during opening... Sure you can, they are called Harness inputs and I assure you can can fly your self through the opening using them and small leg and/or arm inputs just like you do when your not in a WS. I have landed an R Bird more than a once with unzipping anything. Don't have an R Bird, but I've landed several other designs without unzipping. Heck when I get spun up my arm wings act as GREAT sails for stopping and correcting the spin... I've got two sport cutaways now, and NEITHER were in a WS. In fact I've never been at a point where I felt like I needed to... I will say though that when I started WS'ing that I had my rigs mod'd to include dynamic corners, longer bridles and larger PC's. Take care! Be safe out there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #25 December 2, 2011 QuoteThis is a moot debate, throw your PC properly and maintain a symmetrical body position with closed legs on deployment and there is not an issue. I have over 1000 wingsuit flights with a normal container, pc and bridle and have no issues. Keep it simple and deploy properly. I had the very same idea, but I have to admit, a container has its part in the quality of deployment. With the very same canopy in a Javelin as tight fit, does not open as nice and clean than from a Vector II loose fit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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mccordia 74 #2 November 26, 2011 QuoteI would have the impression wingsuit would be safer in the sense that it gives you more time to react. The only segment where it adds more time, is the freefall. But the critical parts of a skydive (the opening) everyone is under the same 1G acceleration, and has to go through the same canopy procedures as a normal skydive. Yet with an added straight-jacket restricting your movement. Wingsuit flying isnt more prone to parachute malfunctions, though we are seeing a lot more malfunctions/linewist, which tend to be the result from bad body position/low skill. On top of that, it is physically more demanding, and the arms can wear out after long flights, resulting in weak pull etc. On top of that, the suit adds a lot of variables on top of the skydive (navigation, exit dangers of hitting the airplane tail) as well as more agressive response in case of instability (due to the larger control surfaces).JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #3 November 26, 2011 Quote Wingsuit flying isnt more prone to parachute malfunctions, though we are seeing a lot more malfunctions/linewist, which tend to be the result from bad body position/low skill. Are we really seeing more, or just more that have to be cut away? With some canopies, line twists that in a normal skydive are easy to deal with can quickly become unrecoverable spins in the few seconds it takes to free the arms in a wingsuit.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #4 November 26, 2011 I think a combination of both. Indeed also dealing with a spin/twist is harder, as well as people jumping stupid small canopies, with stupid low jump numbers, and bad body position and pull technique. Ive seen more than one cutaway that was the result of massive asymmetry during deployment, while (initially) the canopy opened correctly. And some truly scary stuff with bigger suits (again that more massive burble) and small canopies. The german video (main getting sucked back into the burble completely after deploying) especially.. In general...I think wingsuit flying has a much larger percentage of people keen on putting themselves in danger... JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arvoitus 1 #5 November 26, 2011 Because if you're lazy when you pull this happens. I was so sure that I was going to get my first cutaway when it started to spin but things settled down after all.Your rights end where my feelings begin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShcShc11 0 #6 November 26, 2011 QuoteBecause if you're lazy when you pull this happens. I was so sure that I was going to get my first cutaway when it started to spin but things settled down after all. Ouch. Maybe the rigs need to be re-designed in order to accommodate wingsuit flyers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #7 November 26, 2011 QuoteOuch. Maybe the rigs need to be re-designed in order to accommodate wingsuit flyers Noop...people just need to pull the way they also should on normal skydives. Lazy pulls can also lead to all kinds of crap on normal jumps..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #8 November 27, 2011 in reply to "Maybe the rigs need to be re-designed in order to accommodate wingsuit flyers " ................................................ no Maybe about it ,there's definitely room for improvement . We're just making do, quite OK usually , with what we've got. A bit of bridle length increase, a roll of the bag to point the bag grommet in the direction of deployment, close attention to slack line placement in the container and usually things are ok. But if one bit of the bag gets caught during deployment , it may be in a spin already as it bounces off your feet , shedding lines and looking quite mesmerisingly fatal until the interesting opening that follows. You suddenly realise how inadequate the gear is . With just one little slip of packing or deployment attention you may get a reserve ride. We need less finicky equipment. a simple upgrade would be ... dynamic corners. No more snaggy baggy. The whole throwaway thing seems woobbly too. Tossing out a Pc and hoping it inflates seems a bit haphazard . I've been wondering if a pull-out might be more effective. I've jumped pull-out reserve rigs (ie handle on base of pilotchute not the top.) that worked VERY well. The reserve pc would get snatched out of your hand before full arm extension. Perhaps something similar would work with a wingsuit main deployment. .....perhaps not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 858 #9 November 27, 2011 In over 4800 jumps, I have only two sport cutaways. BOTH wingies. Love the burble over your back holding the back while playing etch-o-sketch. Or when Scott Bland flies over top and kicks my d bag into massive line twists.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #10 November 28, 2011 Almost all manufacturers offer dynamic corners...it is a simple mod to get the corners opened up. I had my Mirage modified before I started wing suiting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtbox 0 #11 November 30, 2011 I was of the same thought but after talking to a lot of people and doing a bit of reading I swaped my pullout for a BOC. Maybe when I have some more WS experience (25ish now) I will put the pullout back on and try it... I know guy who does jump a Phantom 2 with a pullout (he also has 5000 odd jumps... not my tiny 250ish). If you search for pullout and wingsuit here you get a few people who said they use/used it but most frowned upon it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #12 November 30, 2011 Quotea simple upgrade would be ... dynamic corners. No more snaggy baggy. I have three rigs with dynamic corners and I believe that they can help. OTOH my second jump on a rig that had just been modified with dynamic corners ended up a cutaway. Like a lot of mods they're an aid not a solution.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #13 November 30, 2011 Pullouts work fine, if you don't mind hesitations and are entirely sure you can get it into the wind every time, and don't mind pulling a little higher to deal with it if it doesn't work the way you expect it to work, and as long as you stay in a small suit, and, and...there is a reason "most frown on it." A big part of skydiving is mitigating risk and minimising error where we can. Using a pullout is a step in the other direction. Aside from the "I know a guy that has 5000 jumps who jumps with one," what good reason is there to use a pullout system Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krollo 0 #14 November 30, 2011 There are several reasons why wingsuiting is considered more dangerous then regular skydiving. Most of the dangers are related to lack of experience. - Bad exit, hitting the tail. - Unstable deployments resulting in malfunctions. - Bad body position resulting in big burble that might Oscillate your pilotchute into another dimension! - Lazy pilot throw, resulting in pilotchute Oscillation/twists. - mid air collisions with other wingsuits. Actually, I've done all of these (except for hitting the aircraft tail). Except from the problems listed, I think the most dangerous part of wingsuit flying is the deployment. Wingsuits are like straitjackets, you can't make inputs to your canopy during opening. And when your canopy is opened it is extremly important to pay attention to other canopies. How many times havent we seen wingsuit video, then after deployment the jumper starts unzipping and does not pay ANY attention to the airspace. This is not really just for wingsuits, but it is easier to get distracted by all the zippers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtbox 0 #15 November 30, 2011 There seems to be no good reasons to jump a pullout over BOC (had my container moded before my ffc) in wingsuiting (and there are enough debates on here about them in general... though I do personally like the idea of pulling my own pin and would rather deal with a floating handle than pilotchute-in-tow). Doesn't mean that with experience I wouldn't mind to try it for myself to understand it PS I believe you taught Ke - he was my FFC instructor/I was his first student - I think he did a pretty good job :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #16 November 30, 2011 With a pullout, if you have a weak pitch that is still enough to pull your pin, but not enough for the PC to clear your burble, you now have the possibility of the d-bag falling out of your container and getting tangled in the PC bridle that is dancing around your back. Not something I want to deal with. If you have a throw out PC dancing in your burble, most likely your container is still closed. As soon as you get some clean air to get PC to full stretch, you have a normal deployment. Much preferable. Just because people get away with doing something that is not best practice, doesn't make it a good idea. A throw out PC on a longer bridle is your friend.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits 0 #17 December 1, 2011 Quote - Bad exit, hitting the tail. - Unstable deployments resulting in malfunctions. - Bad body position resulting in big burble that might Oscillate your pilotchute into another dimension! - Lazy pilot throw, resulting in pilotchute Oscillation/twists. - mid air collisions with other wingsuits. All of these have killed more non-wingsuiters than those with wingsuits....to date...we should try and keep it that way. A wingsuit just makes all of the above more likely.Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #18 December 1, 2011 in reply to "what good reason is there to use a pullout system " .............................. Sorry , should have made it clearer , I'm not a huge fan of the pullout system as such for wingsuiting, but the thought was , putting the pud on the base of the PC. it still operating like a throwaway but getting inflation at arms stretch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
verticalflyer 11 #19 December 1, 2011 This is a moot debate, throw your PC properly and maintain a symmetrical body position with closed legs on deployment and there is not an issue. I have over 1000 wingsuit flights with a normal container, pc and bridle and have no issues. Keep it simple and deploy properly.Dont just talk about it, Do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #21 December 2, 2011 Quote...you can't make inputs to your canopy during opening... Sure you can, they are called Harness inputs and I assure you can can fly your self through the opening using them and small leg and/or arm inputs just like you do when your not in a WS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #22 December 2, 2011 in reply to ". I have over 1000 wingsuit flights with a normal container, pc and bridle and have no issues. Keep it simple and deploy properly. " ................................ +0 You have 1000 ws jumps , So @#$%in' what? I can't share an idea? just sit in the corner and shut up eh ? I'm gunna try this idea and see if its an improvement. I'll let you know what happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits 0 #23 December 2, 2011 QuoteQuote...you can't make inputs to your canopy during opening... Sure you can, they are called Harness inputs and I assure you can can fly your self through the opening using them and small leg and/or arm inputs just like you do when your not in a WS. I have landed an R Bird more than a once with unzipping anything.Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #24 December 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote...you can't make inputs to your canopy during opening... Sure you can, they are called Harness inputs and I assure you can can fly your self through the opening using them and small leg and/or arm inputs just like you do when your not in a WS. I have landed an R Bird more than a once with unzipping anything. Don't have an R Bird, but I've landed several other designs without unzipping. Heck when I get spun up my arm wings act as GREAT sails for stopping and correcting the spin... I've got two sport cutaways now, and NEITHER were in a WS. In fact I've never been at a point where I felt like I needed to... I will say though that when I started WS'ing that I had my rigs mod'd to include dynamic corners, longer bridles and larger PC's. Take care! Be safe out there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #25 December 2, 2011 QuoteThis is a moot debate, throw your PC properly and maintain a symmetrical body position with closed legs on deployment and there is not an issue. I have over 1000 wingsuit flights with a normal container, pc and bridle and have no issues. Keep it simple and deploy properly. I had the very same idea, but I have to admit, a container has its part in the quality of deployment. With the very same canopy in a Javelin as tight fit, does not open as nice and clean than from a Vector II loose fit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
